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Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1275550
09/26/09 11:37 AM
09/26/09 11:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 227
N.E. Montana
Scooters Offline
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N.E. Montana
Hi,

I've used my Papp's some and seems quicker than a rubber type mute. But I haven't tried it on a Grand yet. I've got a grand to tune up this next Monday so I'll experiment. I think the spring would have to be stronger to keep the Papp vertical on a grand, I don't know. I don't think it was designed for grands.

I've got a Treble Stick Mute (schaff #204-1/2) It's a double ended mute with wedges that are buck skin covered. One end has a slit in it that I assume is to slip onto a string. The slit seems to tight to go onto the string with out doing damage to the string.
Anyone have any experience with this tool?

A good video on split mutes is:

Drwoodwind has some real nice vids.
This technique it also talked about in the book:
Different Strokes - hammer techniques by Ken Burton. (Appendix B and C)
I've tuned several pianos this way and it works ok. I'm still faster with the temp strip especially when I have to do a pitch raise.



Scott
Associate Member Piano Technicians Guild
RsgPianoService
We love to play BF2
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Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1275642
09/26/09 02:11 PM
09/26/09 02:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by jpscoey


Let us know how you go, yeh?

.


John,

I did the action tilting today on the U3 and used the mute below the dampers in the section just after the plate brace (D5 ->), as you do. It has another great advantage for me - the dampers are still in normal use. When I put the strip mute underneath (ie behind) the dampers, I have constantly open-ringing strings, and that gives me less control. Might be due to lack of experience, but the strip-mute-below method was great in that sense - it relaxed my c5 -> tuning considerably. Thanks for the great help.

One more question, though. Where on earth do you fit the papps mute in that section on a U3? That is, the octave roughly D5-D6. I can somewhat get it to work, but I can´t move fast and with ease. In the upper treble I use it just below the hammer line.

Last edited by pppat; 09/26/09 02:12 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: pppat] #1275658
09/26/09 02:49 PM
09/26/09 02:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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Originally Posted by pppat

One more question, though. Where on earth do you fit the papps mute in that section on a U3? That is, the octave roughly D5-D6. I can somewhat get it to work, but I can´t move fast and with ease. In the upper treble I use it just below the hammer line.


I'm glad that you found some success with this Patrick -

as I said, it is the most efficient way for me to work quickly.

I've tried to upload a few photos I took on a job yesterday, including one of where I

place the papps wedge,

but unfortunately my computer skills aren't up to much & I couldn't figure out

how to do it help!!!

If you want to PM me your email address, I should be able to do it that way?

(maybe you could then post them on here?)

Cheers for now,

John.


John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1275879
09/26/09 10:34 PM
09/26/09 10:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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pppat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
I'll PM you right away, and post them here ASAP!


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: pppat] #1275997
09/27/09 07:19 AM
09/27/09 07:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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Originally Posted by pppat
I'll PM you right away, and post them here ASAP!


Email has been sent, Patrick.
.


John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1276169
09/27/09 03:09 PM
09/27/09 03:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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Jakobstad, Finland
Here they are, John, with your comments aligned. Thanks once again! Cheers, Patrick.

Originally Posted by jpscoey
[this photo] shows the overall muting of the piano (I use 4 separate muting strips).

[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by jpscoey
[this one] shows tuning the unisons in the scale area - you can see that I'm working my way up, tuning the left string to the centre, then moving on to the right string.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by jpscoey
The third picture shows the position of the papps wedge - it works best when you place it between the hammers 3 or 4 notes up from the one you're working on.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by pppat; 09/27/09 06:12 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: pppat] #1276172
09/27/09 03:17 PM
09/27/09 03:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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'
Nice work Patrick - one of these days I'll figure out how to use

this damn computer!


I hope these pics may make what I've tried to explain a little clearer for you folks?
.


John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1276205
09/27/09 04:11 PM
09/27/09 04:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,665
Oakland
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Moving the action and muting under the dampers can be detrimental on older pianos. The dampers no longer line up as well with the strings and do not work as well. So I never do that. Speed is not as important as not damaging the piano.


Semipro Tech
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: BDB] #1276210
09/27/09 04:22 PM
09/27/09 04:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
Moving the action and muting under the dampers can be detrimental on older pianos.


Sorry, but I have to disagree here - I've been using this technique for years & years now,

and never have I found it to be of any detriment to any piano.

If anything, it helps to identify any potential problems with the action seating/dampers etc

that may need attention - if the action is securely (& accurately) seated in the first place

then there is no detriment at all to the dampers - certainly less than 'pushing' the

muting strip behind the dampers in-situ.

If you can tell me something I don't know, I'd be very willing to learn?

.



John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: BDB] #1276211
09/27/09 04:22 PM
09/27/09 04:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 227
N.E. Montana
Scooters Offline
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N.E. Montana
Nice pics and great shot of the Papps Mute!

Isn't there a place to store pics on this forum list? I've seen the gallery but I don't know if that's the place to store or not.

In my email place in the server with my internet provider (ISP) there's a storage space. If I use an FTP program and go there I can build a directory called public_html. Then I can build other directories in there for each subject or what ever.

My isp is nemont.net so I just make the following url to grab pics for this forum:
http://www.nemont.net/~MyEmail/nameFoo.jpg
Hope that comes out ok. The little squiggle in front of the user name of my email is the tilde which lives on your keyboard just above the " ` " key (upper left hand corner).

But it would be nice to load 'em up here too.




Scott
Associate Member Piano Technicians Guild
RsgPianoService
We love to play BF2
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1276241
09/27/09 05:42 PM
09/27/09 05:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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pppat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
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Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by jpscoey
I hope these pics may make what I've tried to explain a little clearer for you folks?

Yes definitely, John, great that you took the time to take these enlightening pics!

Originally Posted by scooters
Isn't there a place to store pics on this forum list?

[ EDIT: I don´t think there is, I put this up on one of my sites and linked the images from there.
If there is a need for a public storage place for pics in this forum I guess I could make one on one of my servers. I'm a much more experienced webmaster than tuner, and I'd be happy to give something back to all you helpful people here in the forum smile
This earlier suggestion of mine is obsolete if the forum gallery works as well as during my test run right after I wrote this thread. ]

Anyway, I agree with you Scooters, would be nice to have a central storage on the forum server.

[ EDIT: I checked the forums at Piano World, and they do have a gallery just as you said, Scooters, even if it's just up for a test drive at this stage. I'll try it out right away.]

Last edited by pppat; 09/27/09 06:04 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: pppat] #1276252
09/27/09 05:58 PM
09/27/09 05:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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pppat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
Yes, it worked out great. Now the pics are in the gallery at the forum itself. If anybody needs help with how to do this, I'll be happy to help out.

The whole gallery can be seen here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/1276246.html#Post1276246


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: BDB] #1276590
09/28/09 01:24 PM
09/28/09 01:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
Moving the action and muting under the dampers can be detrimental on older pianos. The dampers no longer line up as well with the strings and do not work as well. So I never do that. Speed is not as important as not damaging the piano.


BDB, please will you explain what you meant by this?

I did ask you to enlighten me yesterday, but due to the time difference I thought I'd

give it time.

However, you have posted a couple of comments on this forum in the last hour-or-so.....

and I can't help wondering what it is that we all need to know about what the 'dangers' are

of removing an action from a piano?
.


John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1276846
09/28/09 07:47 PM
09/28/09 07:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,665
Oakland
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Old damper felts get grooves in them (compression failure!). There are a number of things that can cause an action to move slightly when you take it from the piano: loose screws, warpage, etc. If moving the action, or for that matter, having the dampers hit on a piece of felt, then the dampers can leak, or worse.

I gave up trying to do anything like that a long time ago. I use Schaff #200 wedges with handles, usually placed above the dampers. In the rare cases where that does not work, they fit between the hammer shanks below the dampers.


Semipro Tech
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: BDB] #1276937
09/28/09 09:53 PM
09/28/09 09:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
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Originally Posted by BDB
#1 Old damper felts get grooves in them (compression failure!).

#2 There are a number of things that can cause an action to move slightly when you take it from the piano: loose screws, warpage, etc. If moving the action, or for that matter, having the dampers hit on a piece of felt, then the dampers can leak, or worse.


I really do NOT want embark on a crusade here, but you seem to be questioning/belittling my

way of working - which has won me plaudits as as a full-time professional tuner/tech for

nearly 30 years. (Your signature indicates that you are a semi - pro?)

What you are saying is contradictory - if the damper felts get "compression failure",

then surely the thing to do is sort it out? -

and if there are "loose screws/warpage" - then that needs sorting out too, agreed?


Removing the action is something any competent technician can do without any worries

about the consequences - what would you do if you had to replace a broken

string/spring/hammer shank/worn-out felt/leather/adjust the pedals/remove 'unwanted'

articles interfering with the action etc...etc? - leave the action exactly as it is?


Your 'explanation' does not stand up to scrutiny.

Sorry, but that's my point of view.




John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1277178
09/29/09 09:36 AM
09/29/09 09:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 227
N.E. Montana
Scooters Offline
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Hi guys,

I used a Papp's mute on a Baldwin Upright yesterday and I'm impressed with the ease of placing the mute and moving from note to note. Fast unison tuning!! thumb




Scott
Associate Member Piano Technicians Guild
RsgPianoService
We love to play BF2
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: jpscoey] #1277259
09/29/09 12:12 PM
09/29/09 12:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,665
Oakland
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Originally Posted by jpscoey
Originally Posted by BDB
#1 Old damper felts get grooves in them (compression failure!).

#2 There are a number of things that can cause an action to move slightly when you take it from the piano: loose screws, warpage, etc. If moving the action, or for that matter, having the dampers hit on a piece of felt, then the dampers can leak, or worse.


I really do NOT want embark on a crusade here, but you seem to be questioning/belittling my

way of working - which has won me plaudits as as a full-time professional tuner/tech for

nearly 30 years. (Your signature indicates that you are a semi - pro?)

What you are saying is contradictory - if the damper felts get "compression failure",

then surely the thing to do is sort it out? -

and if there are "loose screws/warpage" - then that needs sorting out too, agreed?


Removing the action is something any competent technician can do without any worries

about the consequences - what would you do if you had to replace a broken

string/spring/hammer shank/worn-out felt/leather/adjust the pedals/remove 'unwanted'

articles interfering with the action etc...etc? - leave the action exactly as it is?


Your 'explanation' does not stand up to scrutiny.

Sorry, but that's my point of view.



I do not need to explain myself. My method does not interfere with the dampers nor the rest of the action. I found it is the best way for me and my customers, in my many years of professional work, even before I came into a position where I no longer need to be professional all the time.


Semipro Tech
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: BDB] #1277269
09/29/09 12:26 PM
09/29/09 12:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 377
USA
J
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You don't need to explain yourself? I thought that's what started the problem.

Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: BDB] #1277303
09/29/09 01:04 PM
09/29/09 01:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 306
Manchester, England, UK.
jpscoey Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
I do not need to explain myself.

My method does not interfere with the dampers nor the rest of the action.



Yes you do...!!!

If you put posts on here contradicting other peoples opinions/methods, then a valid

explanation as to why is warranted.

Please tell us what is so special about your method?..... if it's a better way of working

than the rest of us use, then all of us on this forum can benefit.
.


John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I.
Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982.
myspace
Re: Times it takes to tune a piano [Re: JBE] #1277307
09/29/09 01:06 PM
09/29/09 01:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
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Not to try and create an even bigger problem here but, BDB is a widely respected tech in the forum John. He knows his stuff. Gets to the point, says it and moves on.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
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