Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Mason & Hamlin manufacturing defect

This is the first time I've posted to the Piano World Forum. I have a problem with my 2005 Mason & Hamlin Model A and getting the company to do anything about it, and wonder if anyone might have some advice on what to do next. To make a long story short, my piano has been difficult to keep in tune since I purchased it. A couple of years ago my piano technician discovered a gap between the pin block and the plate, which he believed was the source of the problem. After contacting Mason & Hamlin, and after they discussed things with my technician, they dispatched an epoxy kit to him and instructed him to press the epoxy up into the gap from underneath (instead of turning the piano over) ... and told him that would solve the problem. It did not, and I complained to Mason & Hamlin again. They then sent one of their own techs to San Francisco, where I live. He tuned the piano, then came back a month later and tuned it again. About three weeks later the piano was wildly out of tune again. So I complained again and received nothing more than a brief email stating that my piano fell "within standards." Since then, I've spent hundreds more dollars on additional tunings which hold for only a matter of weeks before the unisons in the treble section begin to fall out of tune again. I'm at a loss as to what to do next. It seems to me that M&H should acknowledge that the gap was a manufacturing defect and give me another piano or my money back, but they've ignored my request. So much for the 12-year warranty. Any suggestions anyone has would be very much appreciated. I made a warranty claim directly to the Burgett brothers who own Mason & Hamlin and was never even given the courtesy of a reply. Thanks in advance for any advice you might have. Ed Kerry

I am sorry to hear about your experience with the M & H...
The gap could be the reason for the instability but I would like to suggest that other stabilizing processes could be tried.....
As you'll see from my 'by line' I specialize in Steinway grands and prep around 100 each year....I would like to try some techniques out that I use on Steinways and on other fine quality grand pianos including new M & H given the opportunity. What I do is not harmful to the instrument and, in fact, produces a much more stable and 'happy' piano.
The guys over at Piano Disc know my work....

I will do this for no charge...I live close to you and would love to be able to restore your confidence...
If you need any further references please feel free to call Steinway and Sons New York factory and ask for David Kirkland...
If the process works I'll have a word with the folks over there at M & H/Piano Disc and discuss with them any costs they would like to cover.

This is a serious offer....I won't be offended if you decline..

Good Luck....

Thank you for your generous offer, but I think before I go ahead with that I'd like to work on M&H a bit more about replacing the piano. In addition to spending a fortune on tunings, I've also spent a fortune on a very highly regarded specialist from southern California who has a great reputation but despite his best efforts has not been able to stabilize the tuning. I'd hate to have you work on it, get paid by M&H, and then have the problem come back. The gap was real, and about 16" long, so it was a serious defect. I'll keep you posted on what happens as I figure out my next steps. Thanks again ... I really appreciate your offer and may well get back to and ask you give it a go at a later date. Ed

It sounds as if there is nothing anyone here can do for you. All I can say is that the Federal Trade Commission administers warranty law, and that you may have additional rights in your particular state.

Next time, don't buy American.

First, it is not certain that a gap between the pinblock and the plate flange will cause tuning instability. It depends upon the design of the particular model of piano. In any event, the fact that the gap has been filled and tuning instability remains is evidence that the gap was not the source of the problem.

A possible source of tuning instability is the environment. Humidity/temperature logging devices exist that can document that the environment is stable or otherwise. If you really wish to press this matter as a warranty issue, then it is my opinion that you should provide documentation that you have provided a suitable environment for the piano.

What kind of comment is that?

Peter,

It would be of great service to the technician community if you would share your methods of establishing tuning stability.

Other than fixing obvious manufacturing flaws (gap between plate and block, loose pins, etc), tightening plate hardware and establishing environmental controls, what other things do you do?

Not a very intelligent one, obviously.

Well, I haven't heard about these kinds of problems with Japanese pianos. Or Chinese ones for that matter. Or German ones. As far as the German and Japanes pianos goes, I think it is unlikely that the manufacturer would tell a customer with this kind of a problem to take a hike rather than taking responsibility for it. Kind of like buying a high-end US car from a company in shaky financial shape like General Motors versus buying a BMW or Lexus and then being disappointed in its engineering, finish, performance, customer service and warranty. There is a reason there are few piano manufacturers left in the US and it is not just because of the high cost of labor.

I was recently at the factory and saw a new piano in there for "rebuild". So it is possible that they might take one back. Good luck.. their business is slow. They have plenty in stock.

I have yet to find, in my experience, as well as with the many conversations with Technicians I hold in regard, that the condition of the pin block as originally described by Ed Kerry is actually responsible for tuning problems.

And ... I HAVE heard that claim made against every manufacturer at some point... Especially the Japanese and Asian pianos.

I support Peter having a look at the piano. His offer to do it "Pro Bono" is truly a gracious one. Peter has credibility here and I, for one, would be curious to hear his opinion of the piano in question.

Hello Randy...
My offer is based on the experience I have gleened over the past several years.
It has always been amazing to me that REAL preps are not carried out on many of the new pianos that are out there....
The make is not an issue.
I have had to go in and 'resurrect' many instruments that had issues due to specific processes not being carried out before leaving the store..I still feel that many out there just don't get it...technicians and pianos.
The problem is they don't realize the significance and if they do, feel that they don't want to spend the time....
Since you asked...
PREP 101...this stuff isn't a new idea

Check plate and nose bolts
Secure termination points at duplex and bridge either by tapping or pressing with brass rod and/or pusher. (no bull here from those who say DONT TAP...it all about HOW you do it)
Pitch raise to 443
Secure termination points at front of piano...where bass strings and treble strings go over the front bridge using the same technique.
Tapping down to snug up the coils on the pins and tapping the bass string loops at the hitch pins can also take slack out of the system.
I them lift strings or level them with a Goss level and after filing the hammers I fit them to the level strings.
This last point does not really add any stability..just wanted to complete the thought.

I then regulate/fine tune to 442/check fit again/voice etc as per usual.

If the above procedure is followed in that order ANY piano will become more stable.

My point in this particular case is that this instrument may NOT have had much or even any basic prep...I has offering to check it out to see...I did not wish to raise any issues but was just trying to help and avoid switching out a piano that may NOT have any stability issues if prepped properly...On the other hand, maybe non of the above will make the slightest difference....and then we'll know it is the piano...maybe.

Hope that helps.

OK guys....pile in with your comments...as for not buying American...who IS than guy...needs to be taken behind the chicken shed and given a knuckle butty.

I second Larry's opinion, making sure M & H knows of the plan (and agrees to pay Peter as necessary) before the fact rather than after.

Crossed posts in the mail, Peter. Knuckle Butty...English for a knuckle sandwich, eh?

Is there a dealer involved in this saga? If so, what is he saying or doing for you?

Unfortunately, the dealer is no longer in business.

Peter,

I just read what your process is, and wanted to let you know that all of these have already been done, not once, but twice, and without success. My gut is telling me that the gap is still the the source of the problem, because the repair was not really sufficient to cure it ... but of course I can't be certain.

Thx. again.

Ed

If you have a problem that should be covered under the warranty, then describe the problem, not the cause. You do not need to diagnose, you just need to get the problem fixed.

At this point, I could not swear that you have a problem. The humidity conditions may not be stable, the tunings may not have been good enough, or your judgement of how well the piano is in or out of tune may be unreasonable. None of us can judge those things without seeing and hearing the piano.

Fitting the block to the plate is something which really cannot be judged without disassembling the piano. A gap between the bottom of the block and the plate is probably not significant, and you cannot see the gap at the top of the block. The only thing that matters is that the block and the plate do not move in relationship to each other, and in relationship to the rest of the piano.

Concerning the block to plate, having been to the factory twice, it appeared to me that they spend A LOT OF TIME mating the pinblock to the plate. Not to say it can't happen.

Ed, you said on the other thread that you could see the gap with a mirror and that your technician had used some metal to feel how deep it is and how long it runs. Could you describe more precisely the gap? If this is a gap you can see from beneath, it must not be between the top of the block and the plate, but rather the back (string side) of the block and the part of the plate that comes down beside the block. Was your technician able to insert a piece of metal all the way to the top of the block, and hit the top flat part of the plate under the pins? Is the gap in the treble section?

To see whether your standards of tuning are unreasonable of course you could make a recording, but only if that level of feedback from the forum is important to you.