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This seems like an instance where something that is legal may also be just plain wrong.

I would be upset if a video of my daughter were posted without my knowledge, especially if done in this way (splicing each performance, posting to a messsage board, asking for feedback and re-judging).

I'm sure I would have signed the release, and I would not have been upset if the sponsoring organization had posted the recordings.

I doubt I would get an attorney, but if I could identify MA, I would certainly ask that it be removed. I might indicate to the sponsoring association that this had happened and express my displeasure.

These are little girls. What if the posting had lead to a dissecting of their performances in a public forum? Neither they nor their families asked for the critique.

Common decency would suggest removing the links.

Dorrie

I'm putting myself in the shoes of the parents of the kids in that competition.

I would go after anyone who put a video of my daughter on the internet without my permission. If I sign a release that the organization sponsoring a recital or competition could do so, that is fine, and I can live with it. Someone not aligned with the organization to video my daughter at that venue, and put the videos on YouTube is an outrage, and I wouldn't stand for it. I would find out who they are find out what my options are for coming after them legally.

Why would I pull my daughter from public performances? Some people think that in this age of Youtube, etc., that your life is 100% public as soon as you step outside your door. I don't believe that.

I have exceptionally strong feeling about this. Teachers need to definitely be aware that parents have strong feelings about this.

What right does some other parent have to video my daughter, and post it to an online forum asking "ok, who's better?"

I would really like the OP to come back here, and explain how these videos were done - who did them, etc..

The second video is the Op. 17 No. 4 Mazurka.

Honestly don't see what the problem is since the performers are not named, unless the parents forbade the posting of these videos. After all, I don't think these videos could be construed as exploitative in a criminal sense, though perhaps in an ethical sense.

Also don't see why anyone needs to pass judgement on the relative merits of each performer, when they are so young. What's the point of this thread?

It's just not worth our time to dissect the performances of musicians who are not yet finished. Obviously each of these four young ladies has tremendous potential, but I think it best to leave critique/dissection to their individual teachers/teacher at this point. I agree that the links (and perhaps the videos) ought to be pulled.

Parents should be allowed to film everyone taking part in a recital, school play, sporting event... however I do agree with you when it comes to posting on the internet, or for that matter inclusion in a TV program, news item, newspaper article that permission of each and every person should be sought. Not only because I feel that is the right thing to do, but because some of those taking part (both children and adults) may be at risk.

Any events where the organisers intend to film and distribute the event publically, (be it internet, tv or somthing similar) should have the participants permission before hand. At least that way, anyone who objects can decide whether to take part or not and organisers can decide whether to make an exception for specific cases.

I'd hate to not have the videos of school plays I took part in, even though they're often embarrasing

I wonder what the legal situation is with this though. I'd hope there are no laws stopping parents filming events their children take part in, but at the same time hope there's something that stops public distribution without prior permission whether the distribution is for commercial gain or not.

I do remember there been an law/exception when it comes to certain events where it is impracticle to get permission of everyone, for example spectators at a televised football game. So perhaps there are laws that cover this already?

Maybe that's something those of you that run recitals should look into for future events?

As for judging those involved in the competition, I agree with the others in this thread, other than to say the two I watched are clearly way ahead of me in their playing ability

Edit: Just done some googling on the legal aspects of this and it turned up an interesting blog post. I think event organisers do risk stigmatising parents who are guilty of nothing more than been good parents.

http://www.qwerf.com/?p=509



I think that last sentance pretty much sums it up and sounds pretty sane to me.

I think we scared MA off.

Huh? No it isn't, it's the waltz op.34 no.2.
(on my computer, anyway )

What was posted here in PW - a popular worldwide forum for piano dealers, teachers, performers, students, parents of students... - was not an example of a parent videoing other children in the same performance of their child. It was solo performances of the other children.

Everyone knows that parents can - and should be able to - video a group dance, school show, or other performance that includes other kids. That is fine, fair, no problem.
The problem starts when someone posts the videos on YOtube, and on an Internet forum.

Different scenarios are possible - as I view the videos:

1) The OP did the videos, and posted them on YouTube.

2) The organizers videoed the performers, sold/supplied the parents with dvd's of the entire competition, and the OP posted them on Youtube.

3) Some other third party videoed, and provided the OP with the dvd, which were then posted by the OP on YOuTube.

None of the above would be - IMO - appropriate.

I think we did scare away the OP, but he/she should answer some questions on how these videos were done, and posted.

btw, the article you linked does not seem to apply at all to the US, where this competition took place.

I do not like the idea that someone's parent would post other young children's piano performance and rerun the competition again.

Those videos are out there forever now and might be embarrassing or annoying to someone - like the children themselves - or their parents - or their piano teachers.

If the competition organizers and judges object to the "after the event" discussion here in Piano World, that would be another faction heard from.

I think the people - students, teachers, parents - are the ones who should complain if they think poor judging occured. The adjudicator doesn't get invited next time. Sour grapes it seems.

I'm not the least big interested in looking at the videos since there is an obvious "hidden agenda".

And the instruction to not reward a student who is struggling with their piece is totally out of place. It is obvious when a piece is not up to par regardless of the difficulty level. Teachers and parents should not tax their children so heavily with a music performance that can self destruct. Musical integrity applies to the teacher - parent - and the student and the judges in my book.

I haven't had my students participate in chapter adjudications in a very long time because of patronizing comments from the adjudicators when the system allows so very little time for the student and adjudicator to hear the pieces and make quick comments. Adjudication does make sense to me once the student is approaching advanced levels of playing and if they are competition oriented or preparing as college music majors.

I have adjudicated for a chapter along with a group of other teachers at a festival for 5 years running. There were so many students participating that there were about 10 rooms judging at the same time. After some point, your hand starts cramping from writing so much, and you run out of energy, although you continue giving your full attention to greeting each performer and writing something congratulatory and pertinent.

During these same years, I adjudicated with 2 other teachers for the Washington State PTA Reflections Program in composition which was many hours of listening to tapes and viewing manuscripts that the students had written. Again, comments and discussion among the team of adjudicators, and your written notes about each student to guide you in the final decisions.

You are just trying to do your best when you are in that position to assign placement for awards. I used a number system to keep track of categories and ratings for each student. Thank goodness for that as once adjudication overload hits, it's hard to remember what occured. That's where video playbacks would be helpful for the final selections.

Long hours. Big effort.

Getting back to MA's question, and Kreisler's comments, my ranking would be almost the same, but as K said, I'd reverse the first two:

Fantasie-Impromptu
Grande Valse Brillante in A minor
Nocturne in Eb Major
Nocturne in C# minor

But in fairness, it was close.

Now, for the record, I don't judge, and probably never will. My tastes are too arcane and students/teachers wouldn't be happy with the results.

Also for the record, I'd be thrilled if any of my HS students would do as well as these four young ladies, who all played very commendably, with absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

One other comment - for Americans - we are, apparently, the only country where stage crews/schools feel the need to use those ridiculous dollies for grand pianos. That's a dead giveaway that this was in the USA. The European grands, and I'm guessing the Asian brands as well, can be rolled quite easily on the rollers the pianos come with.

Oops, dang. I was listening to that recently and I must have mixed them up!! Thanks for the catch, currawong!

I fully agree with you about posting the recording in an online forum (or youtube for that matter) without permission. But the question really needs to be, was permission legally required? and if it was not required, organisers need to be aware of this and take steps to ensure it is.

Which is what John touched upon in his post and combined with your post gave me the impression that organisers of recitals might consider prohibiting all filming which would be a great loss imo. Rather than allowing filming for private viewing but not for public distribution without permission.

Please don't get me wrong, I agree with what you've said in regards to the OP, I just wanted to ensure that any organisers reading this thread realise how important videoing can be and do not over-react.



Just reread my post and it does sound like I gave the wrong impression, I found the article whilst googling the "legal aspects", but it wasn't the legal parts of the article that made me post. It was just a good demonstration of how parents can be unfairly demonised and to show that that even governments (in this case the UK) believe it's important for parents to be allowed to film. I should have made that clearer.

[quote=Gary001
Just reread my post and it does sound like I gave the wrong impression, I found the article whilst googling the "legal aspects", but it wasn't the legal parts of the article that made me post. It was just a good demonstration of how parents can be unfairly demonised and to show that that even governments (in this case the UK) believe it's important for parents to be allowed to film. I should have made that clearer. [/quote]

You're right. Parents can be unfairly demonised. It would be a shame if they were not allowed to video their children performing. I just think it's strange to video other kids in a solo performance venue like a piano recital or competition.

Might it be better, if the organisers of such events, placed a blanket ban on audience members videoing the performances, and instead, provided an 'official' video, which members of the audience could purchase, after the event?

The official video could then be supplied, on the proviso that it is for personal use only, and that it may not be shown publicly, or transmitted via any electronic means, including the Internet, without the express, or written permission of the participants involved.

It seems to me that this would cover all the angles.

Personally, I think recording should never be allowed in competitions for kids under the age of 18. The potential for complaint and abuse is far too likely. If parents want videos of their children, studio recitals can always fill that need.

I'm in charge of a competition next month, and there will be NO recording. I'm not even going to ask people's opinions, I'm just going to make an executive decision and ban the devices from the venue altogether.

Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.

On the otherhand, I can answer Yes to all these questions. If I didn't like it, I'd PM the OP and ASK her to remove the video. I wouldn't THREATEN her in any way because the law is on her side. Failing that, I'd contact YouTube and request the video be removed, but YouTube might tell me that the poster of the video has not violated its policy, and she has the right to post the video under The Constitutions.

Then again, why wouldn't I like my daughter's winning performance being posted on YouTube? Because I don't want her to be judged by people I don't know? But wait, didn't I already send her to this public competition judged by people I didn't know?

In fact, I'd be pround to see my daughter's video here and appreciate feedbacks from other experts whether or not she got the first prize. I'd pass them on to her teacher, too.



I'd doubt any lawyer would take your case, except perhaps those who are out of jobs/clients. Then you'd better be parepared to pay your defendant's attorney's fee when the court throw out your frivilous lawsuit.



Of course you wouldn't if you "believe" the word "public" means x% public + y% private. As Clinton told the grand jury, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."



More correctly, SOME parents have strong feelings about this whereas other parents are on the opposite side.



The purpose of this topic is rather "Judge the judging" than " Judge the kids".



Are you the KGB?

Not in this particular competition, though. On page one of this thread, you told us that you didn't know any of the competitors.

If you didn't record the competitors, then we're not criticizing you. If you are the person who posted the videos on YouTube, then you recorded other people's children and haven't said whether or not you had their permission or blessing.

Interesting subject.



I meet, almost, all the criteria above so I guess I'm allowed to put my 2 pence in.

I just recently placed a few recordings of my daughters chamber group performances on utoob. Before I did so, I got permission from the parents of the other members. The replies to my requests for permission ranged from gratitude to amazement that I would even think I needed to ask, in all cases permission was granted. I wanted to take this approach because I place value in the desires of the other parents and I fully understand that some may not want their kiddos on youtube, I'm ok with that.

From a "legal" standpoint (and IANAL) I would think the biggest thing would be from a copyright standpoint (which would be consistent from state to state). If you record someone performing, they are the copyright holder of that performance, and unless they signed their rights over to the organization holding the performance, recording of the performance and subsequent posting on utube could be the basis for a copyright violation. Note that explicit permission needs to be granted, not the other way around (i.e. if nothing is specifically mentioned then you can assume that you don't have permission). I'm not as familiar with things like personal releases.

So as has been mentioned, I do think that both parents and teachers need to be aware that we are in this brave new world both legally and ethically with regards to posting someone else's kids videos on the web. If you're a parent, and are concerned about this occurring, then you need to query event organizers about the issue and get clarification on what is/isn't allowed. If the parent is uncomfortable with the answer, then they are obviously free to not participate. Ditto with teachers, they can plan for this for events they control (e.g. recitals) and be facilitators by making themselves knowledgeable about the laws and practicalities of these scenarios and preparing students/parents appropriately.

MA,

The reason I was at this competition was that my son competed. Actually, we posted his winners recital video on youtube.

However, if his video was posted in the way you did, I would feel very violated.
Especially, those young girls are just starting competitions. They are not exposed to youtube or facebook unlike my son. Other parents reaction in this thread is totally normal.

You say if they don't like videos, just ask you to remove. But you rather did it anonymously. The chances are they don't even realize their videos are on the web. Once they are public, anyone can link them anywhere. Do you feel OK if this happens to your daughter without your knowledge?
Also, if you are considering sending your daughter to this competition, I am afraid this research you are trying to conduct will do any good. Why do you want to criticize judges? You never know if you can always stay anonymous. It's a very small community.

--playing the devil's advocate here--

Becuase some judges are just plain BAD. I've witnessed and worked with judges who have problems. Some are just inept. Some are brilliant musicians, but they have ulterior motives. And some have hidden agendas.

This is really nothing new. But, with better management and preparation on the part of the event organizers, a lot of these problems can be averted.

I think the legality/morality of recording and uploading the videos depends entirely on whether a recital would be considered a "public" event. To give an analogy, in the regulations governing research with human participants, a distinction is made between observing behavior in public settings (where, with few exceptions, no informed consent is required) vs. that occurring in settings where the individual could reasonably expect privacy.

I do think there will be a range of reactions from parents. I personally wouldn't mind at all for videos of my children to be made in public settings. Actually, the only thing that ever irritates me is when the parent in front of me stands up to do the videotaping and blocks my view.