Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
112 registered members (AlanB, alfredo capurso, amad23, ando, accordeur, AZ_Astro, 29 invisible), 1,994 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1273944 - 09/24/09 07:11 AM Key weight on a Grand  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18
adrienschmitt Offline
Junior Member
adrienschmitt  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18
London, UK
I know this is a subject that has been discussed in previous post but I would like to know your opinion on this.

I have a Bechstein Grand that has been completely renovated a year and a half ago. It has also been regulated and voiced last June.

The impression that I have of the touch is that it doesnt sustain enough. I feel it has a light feeling that's really not appropriate for Brahms for instance. The repetition is not that great also.

For some time I thought voicing it could be a solution.

Then I asked my technician to come and asked his opinion about adding weights.

In my mind I assumed the average downweight of the keys would be lower than 50g. I WAS WRONG. The actual downweight is 52g!
and the upweight is 20g, so nothing extreme.

My technician told me that it could be possible to add some and substract weight to modify the ratio between downweight and upweight. He said he'll look first at the center pins for friction.

I also have an Upright which had been made heavier some time ago. From a downweight of 45g to 55g and I'm quiet happy with the result.
I know the feel and perception of the an Upright is very different from a Grand but what would be the approximate downweight to achieve the same effect? 58g? 60g? 62g?


Thanks

Last edited by adrienschmitt; 09/24/09 07:13 AM.
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#1274061 - 09/24/09 10:56 AM Re: Key weight on a Grand [Re: adrienschmitt]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 852
Peter Sumner- Piano Technician Offline
500 Post Club Member
Peter Sumner- Piano Technician  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 852
San Francisco
The upweight of 20g is right on the border of acceptability...if you reduce the leading to increase that number it will make the downweight higher...which is maybe what you need..
It is all in the perception....there are many places in the keys and action that could benefit from a lube of some kind to reduce friction...each case is different.
There are a host of items that need checking BEFORE any 'voicing' takes place.
You might want to research the hammers that were installed...Bechstein, I seem to remember, had a mahogany core in the early grands and, as such, were fairly lightweight....it is essential that this be replicated in the replacements used if the 'feel' is to be kept the same.


Peter Sumner
Concert Piano Technician


#1274072 - 09/24/09 11:11 AM Re: Key weight on a Grand [Re: Peter Sumner- Piano Technician]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,030
Gene Nelson Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,030
Old Hangtown California
The key that you had measured on your piano has 16 grams of friction. If it were reduced to 10 or 12 -a more normal range- your down/up weight would change noticably. Down minus up divide 2 = friction.
Possible change would be 45/23.


RPT
PTG Member
#1276916 - 09/28/09 09:27 PM Re: Key weight on a Grand [Re: Gene Nelson]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18
adrienschmitt Offline
Junior Member
adrienschmitt  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18
London, UK
Thank you for your help,

I realise now that it's not so much a problem of downweight but more of upweight.
I would like to know if the upweight was increased (up to 30g) and the downweight stayed the same (in the region of 52g), would the keyboard feel heavier even though the downweight remained the same... but I guess there would inevitably be a need to increase it by at least 4g.

I just thinking because: I know how 55g on an upright feels like, I like the heaviness of the keys... a little bit stiff, but ok.
Apparently 55g on an upright would feel like 59g on a grand. So if I could get just a little lighter like 56-57g.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1291006 - 10/21/09 03:02 AM Re: Key weight on a Grand [Re: adrienschmitt]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
pianobroker Offline
4000 Post Club Member
pianobroker  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
North Hollywood CA.
I apologize for resurfacing a dead thread but wonder if you pros could advice me on a predictament very similar to this scenario. I will consult my own staff tomorrow but wanted to get a better idea of what I am dealing with. I have a Steinway with 52 grams downweight and 18 grams upweight.
Somewhat familiar with the formula for calculating friction I am wondering after addressing friction points which would eliminate ? grams,I don't believe it be enough to make a major difference in raising the upweight enough.

If I chose to hang a bit heavier hammer which would add to my downweight(lets say 5 grams added to the touchweight)how much in ratio would it add to my upweight,after of course addressing most friction points already.

Also as Peter mentioned ,if I eliminated ? lead in making the downweight heavier,what is the approximate ratio of the rise in upweight. Really the same question I guess!

You guys deal with this all day long. Not being a tech,I'd like to get a better idea before addressing my guys. Appreciate any insight.!

Last edited by pianobroker; 10/21/09 03:27 AM.

www.pastperfectpiano.com
Largest selection in the USA
100+Steinway and M&H grands
Warehouse showroom Onsite Restoration
Preowned & Restored
Hailun dlr.818-255-3145
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z8RvhXGKzY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voo0zumHGgE
#1292181 - 10/23/09 12:26 AM Re: Key weight on a Grand [Re: pianobroker]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
pianobroker Offline
4000 Post Club Member
pianobroker  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
North Hollywood CA.
In anwsering my own question grin,I am amazed by my prep tech who ceases to amaze me. Having gained 8 grams of upweight just from eliminating friction alone (which I didn't think possible) the piano actually sounds totally different without no voicing at all. The downweight in eliminating the friction from many points changed very little with the upweight changing drastically. I'm very content with approximately 52gms down and 26 grams up with the dampers down. Now with the dampers up I noticed the downweight dropped a bit which is normal but my upweight also dropped 2 grams approximately. The damper action is new by the way. My question, Is it normal for the damper tray when lifted to subtract from the upweight which I need every gram I can get. Am I being too anal or picky ? The piano plays great now and nobody/player wise would discern the loss of those 2 grams of upweight due to the damper tray drag. confused but I'd like to know Appreciate any insight.



Last edited by pianobroker; 10/23/09 12:31 AM.

www.pastperfectpiano.com
Largest selection in the USA
100+Steinway and M&H grands
Warehouse showroom Onsite Restoration
Preowned & Restored
Hailun dlr.818-255-3145
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z8RvhXGKzY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voo0zumHGgE
#1292191 - 10/23/09 01:17 AM Re: Key weight on a Grand [Re: pianobroker]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,030
Gene Nelson Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,030
Old Hangtown California
Not certain what you mean by damper tray drag.
Down and upweight measurements are taken with the damper assembly lifted and out of the equation. It is a good idea however to be certain that there are no friction issues in the damper assembly (I am certain your prep tech has done this) and that the dampers are not being engaged by the key ends too early in the key stroke - about one third to one half hammer travel is a good place to engage the damper lift lever with the key end.
52 down 26 up is a good average place to be.


RPT
PTG Member

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Question about playing scales
by ybtangq. 06/25/17 12:41 PM
How is Kawai's newest Millennium III action?
by James Guo. 06/25/17 12:22 PM
Kurzweil RG100SE, good action?
by Fscotte. 06/25/17 11:15 AM
Brian Crain - Song for Sienna
by TonyDIGITAL. 06/25/17 09:59 AM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,445
Posts2,638,887
Members88,180
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0