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Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
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Uh - well I am not so sure about that, but I am kind of a curious sort, so I investigate things a bit.
How about this question then?
Is a Shigeru Kawai SK6 as good a piano as a Steinway B?
And while we are asking questions - is a Yamaha S6 as good a piano as a Steinway B?
Anyone care to wade in here?
I wouldn't presume to say that the SK6 is better than a Steinway B. But I would presume to say that for my personal tastes as a pianist I would take an SK6 any day over any B I've played. The B is an awesome instrument but I like the Shigeru sound over the Steinway sound and I think the action on a Shigeru, for my tastes, sets a whole new standard that Steinway doesn't come close to. Norbert: I played a Wendl and Lung (smaller than the 218) recently on a tour of eastern Europe (in Poland as I remember) and it played great. To say it's a better piano than a Steinway B seems kind of funny. But to say it's a WAY better value than a B makes sense to me. I'd say it (the one I played anyway) easily compares to some of the tier two instruments I've played. And with the pricetag of these instruments ( as well as Hailun and Brodmann) I think that makes them pretty amazing pianos. I was at Beethoven's pianos in manhattan a while back and Carl Demler had an old Feurich artcase upright shell with all Hailun components inside(essentially everthing Hailun except the 'facade'). Well, he said that it's really funny when people play the 'Feurich' (before they know what's inside) and say things like "Ah, they sure don't make them like they used to":)
Jazz/Improvising Pianist, Composer, University Prof. At home: C. Bechstein Concert 8, Roland RD88 At work: Kawai GX2, Dave Smith Prophet Rev2 16-voice
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Last year there was a *blind-fold* test of grand pianos up to 30.000.- €, conducted by the French music journal Diapason. One of the tester, Francois Dumont, believed he was playing a Steinway, but it was a Wendl & Lung 178: http://www.wendl-lung.com/jart/prj3...id=1223630296256&reserve-mode=activeGregor
Last edited by Gregor; 09/20/09 08:33 AM.
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I saw the above study as well and couldn't quite believe it myself.
I have observed three main reasons why people buy pianos over the years. Let's forget about the 'price' issue for a moment.
1] People buy a piano because it "suits their needs" and appears a good deal overall. This is approximately 25-30% of buyers today.
2] The pianos has a famous name and is mainly chosen because of that. This is perhaps around 50-60% of buyers - with increasingly declining numbers. This number was IMHO much higher in the past but appears declining due to a wider spread of product on the market today.
3] People who connect with a piano in a deeper, very special and personal way. These people, in almost all cases, are players themselves. They may be in the overall minority but are the most satisfying group of people to work with - by far.
All these types of people would decide quite differently if asked the question about pianos - *any piano* - that is.
Manufacturers would be well advised to monitor the last group - if they only *could*
They would perhaps see a lot of reaction worth monitoring.
Living usually in a world of self-adulatory confinement and isolation, they seem to ignore other things going in the market.
Wondering how this topic would be perceived and discussed in say 5-10 years down the road.
We do seem to live in very interesting times indeed.
Norbert
Last edited by Norbert; 09/20/09 11:58 AM.
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Now that's the Norbert that I know and appreciate.
Lots to think about in that post!
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Perfect! Why didn't I think of this before? I'm just going to blindfold myself and/or guests before playing my SP178... Hot dog! I always wanted a Steinway!!!!!
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Wonder how much wine they served the tasters, ah, testers, I mean, before this??
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"Last year there was a *blind-fold* test of grand pianos up to 30.000.- €, conducted by the French music journal Diapason."
Another problem with this is that any playable Steinway is going to be (at least) somewhat north of €30,000. So, the evaluator shouldn't have even thought it could be a candidate...
Clef
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Especially since it would have been a Hamburg Steinway.
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Retired owned of Jasons Music Center Maryland/DC/No. VA Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.
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Can anyone describe what the test was or is that irrelevant to the thread?
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"Last year there was a *blind-fold* test of grand pianos up to 30.000.- €, conducted by the French music journal Diapason."
Another problem with this is that any playable Steinway is going to be (at least) somewhat north of €30,000. So, the evaluator shouldn't have even thought it could be a candidate... How do you know that the 2 pianists asked to do the blind evaluation were told any of the parameters including the price range of the instruments?
Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
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Can anyone describe what the test was or is that irrelevant to the thread? As described, it was conducted by a French magazine "Diapason" which is well-known in Europe. I cannot post the entire results here, but here are the instruments tested and the Overall Scores: Schimmel K169T 6 Stars Wendl & Lung 178 6 Stars Shigeru Kawai SK2 5 Stars August Forster 170 4 Stars Petrof III 3 Stars
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Can anyone describe what the test was or is that irrelevant to the thread? I hesitate, but given the not-too-serious nature of the thread, why not. French classical music/piano mags sometimes invite concert pianists to carry out blind auditions of piano's in a given price range. It's hardly scientific, but good fun to read their opinions. Like reading... whisky tasting notes. Anyhow, to the surprise of many, two pianists invited by Diapason really liked a Wendl&Lung 178. They also loved a Schimmel 168. You can read the whole test here: http://www.pianogroningen.nl/nieuws/42975-wendl-lung-winnaar-franse-testOf course it's very subjective. Judging the W&L to have a superb finish is a sign of rose-tinted glasses, perhaps due to enjoying the piano. The somewhat stiff action of their Shigeru probably felt a bit unresponsive to *them* as they prefer a lighter action. It would not be unresponsive in an objective sense. In the end, the whisky tasters ended up liking an el cheapo brew, as it was powerful...and satisfying. Note, though, that Schimmel and Steingraeber make a point on their websites that they do very well, consistently, in these French blind auditions. So, fair play to Wendl this time. To get back on topic, I would take the Steinway. If it's from Hamburg, of course.
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"How do you know that the 2 pianists asked to do the blind evaluation were told any of the parameters including the price range of the instruments?"
It's a fair point, Furtwangler--- and I don't know. I looked at this magazine article some time back; my French is poor and my Dutch is worse, so I gathered what I could. So maybe it would be more fair to say that if they did know the price ceiling, then they should have known better than to look for a Steinway... and I'm not surprised they liked the W&L.
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Just to restore some perspective, the test price limits were pianos under 30,000 €. Pianos ranged in centimeters from Schimmel (169), Forster (170), Shigeru and Wendl (178) to Petrof (193).
In terms of price, the Shigeru, the Schimmel, and the Forster were all over 27500 €. The Forster tipped the scales at 29,900, just under the € limit. The Petrof was priced at 17,500 € and the Wendl at 10,500 €
The subject piano of this thread, the Wendl 218, was not in the mix at all.
In such a test with a panel of only two players and only five pianos, anything can happen. For a piano like the Wendl, there is literally nothing to lose in such a faceoff. If it came out last, one could say that it cost less than half of its high-end competitors. For a piano like the Forster, which is not everyone's cup of tea, it's a no-win situation. Even if it had fared well, which it did not, one could say that it should have done well since it cost the most.
Mr. Francois Dumont said that he was persuaded he was playing a Steinway due to the tonal refinement of the Wendl. He must have felt it brought out the best in his playing. Perhaps he has since bought a Wendl and now concertizes with a blindfold.
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People should not forget that if you put a very special top- gun technician to any piano - you can easily scew the test.
In fairness to the competition or any other maker, I would not rely on any of those tests or "shows".
On the other hand, there definitely is a group of new challengers out there - we see it in terms of these pianos being compared increasingly to a whole group of "others" out there.
The smarter [new] makers know that they have to go well above the "call of duty" to create some noise and get attention in the market.
Interstingly enough, nobody is comparing these particular pianos to the Sojins or Kimballs of yesterday.
But to an embarrassingly highly placed group of "others"....
Norbert
Last edited by Norbert; 09/20/09 07:16 PM.
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There is a lot to be said for the bias one has to the name on the front of a fallboard and its influence on the perception of the piano. Years ago I was with a group of piano pros and the subject came up about how one person could feel a piano and "know" exactly what it is. Others in the group said they could do this as well. A blind folded challenge was set up to choose a from a Steinway, Yamaha, Young Chang product (private label) and Schimmel and the results were funny. Not one person could correctly name each piano and some even thought the lower priced pianos were the more expensive pianos and visa versa.
As far as the French test goes, a great deal has to do with the level of prep of each piano, including the amount of time spent on voicing and regulation. I don't know if the spoke about that. Then the test does not get into the nitty gritty of what makes one piano better than another from the stand point of materials and craftsmanship.
The W&L 218 is nice, but it is not a Steinway "B". Personally I feel the Brodmann 212 is conceived as more of a performance piano and is much closer to a "B", but still not a "B".
Glenn Treibitz Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928 http://www.hollywoodpiano.comhttp://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano1800 MY-PIANO Steingraeber,Grotrian,Mason&Hamlin,Petrof,Estonia,Steinberg,Schulze-Pollmann,Baldwin, Ritmuller,Perzina,Pearl River,Hardman,Roland,Used Steinway
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"In such a test with a panel of only two players and only five pianos, anything can happen."
Anything?
Like, perhaps, a Suzuki being preferred over a Steinway, a Fazioli or a Steingraeber for instance?
No? Not that?
How about this then - a piano that is made in China comparing favorably with instruments in a similar size range which were made in Europe and Japan? And which cost - in some cases - almost literally 3 times as much?
Even that could happen?
Who would have ever thought?? What can this Piano World - or this world of pianos - be coming to?
If only someone - anyone - had told me this might be a possibility some day.
Oh, well..........
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The subject piano of this thread, the Wendl 218, was not in the mix at all. Yes indeed and is is dad that this whole discussion is now down to the jugding of a piano [or brand] solely based on a medal rewarded by a French music magazine. It must be nice for any piano manufacturer to come out first and not last. But this is what it is: a personal opinion of just a few French pianists which were running some kind of so-called blindfold test of which the excact circumstances are very vague - a snapshop, nothing more, nothing less. If these kind of tests were conclusive Schimmel must be by now far the best piano in the world. It already got 6 gold medals by 'Le Diaposon', 8 Choc Awards by 'Le Monde de la Musique' and another 5 awards by 'Pianiste', a third french magazine. Schimmel awards by the Frenchschwammerl.
Last edited by schwammerl; 09/20/09 10:55 PM.
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<sarcasm>Yes, the Wendel & Lung 218 is better than the Steinway B, in the same way that a Williams Overture digital piano can match an expensive concert grand. (you know who I'm talking about )</sarcasm>
1950 (#144211) Baldwin Hamilton 1956 (#167714) Baldwin Hamilton You can right-click my avatar for an option to view a larger version.
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