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Brand recognition (Renner Premium Blues)may play a role as for marketability to many but it seems a bit contadictory to me in that one's (Samick) goal and emphasis is on recreating this vintage /reissue perspective but in the end is utilizing a European hammer as opposed to the good old "Made in the USA" They don't make them like they used to" approach.

The main reason is the overall consistensy of the manufacture of Renner as opposed to the smaller cold pressed hammer operations.Imagine making hundreds or thousands of pianos where as there is a inconsistency from one set of hammers to the next.The cold pressed hammers are much more labour intensive to make them work than a high tech manufacture of your typical asian or european hot pressed hammer.

It is really not a cost factor between Renner and ? because the cold pressed hammers(generally)are less expensive $.The cost of the hammers equals out because of the extra labour involved in dealing with the cold pressed hammer.In a cold pressed hammer you are always dealing with what I call "hot spots" post juicing and than needling,filing etc. because you're building the hammer up as opposed to knocking an existing hard hammer down.

I think consistency in sound plays a major role for the piano manufacture.In a mass produced piano,who wants all the pianos to be variably different from one piano to the next. Just my opinion in that my voicer can address 3 pianos with Renner Prem. Blues to maybe 1 set of ?/cold pressed hammer. In the end time is $.More labour intensive, more $. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see Ronsen get a thousand hammer set order from Samick.

pianobroker, your informative posts are always appreciated, even when they provide a sensible explanation for why Knabe is using hammers which, to the uninformed, wouldn't make sense.

Looks like there could also be a skills issue here with production line workers. That's too bad.

Thanks again.

FVL, I am not sure about what many Knabes actually sounded like in their original form. Of the few that I have rebuilt, the hammers were so soft, that the sound was unfocused and very dull. A set of modern hammers improved that greatly. I know that they were reknowned by some as a more mellow instrument. That is not my preference and as dull as they were I feel reasonably secure that I could get some concensus on that sound that would not be positive, and hopefully not representative. I have not used Ronsens of any type as yet, but I had decent results from what I think at the time were hammers made by Standard Hammer for the big supply houses. My piano is due for a new set and it will likely get the Renner blues which I have generally been happy with and are sitting in the closet.

PB is absolutely correct about consistency. You generally know in advance what the instrument should sound like with a known hammer. There again, I can recall being quite surprised by a set of Abels that were nearly as hard as some Imadegawas. Not necessarily the kind of surprise I was looking for at the time.

There are no inherent reasons why cold (or “cool,” functionally the same thing) hammers cannot be pressed with the same consistency as hot, hard-pressed hammers. It's just that the major hammermakers haven't really tried. Given the proper press controls and reasonable control through the preparatory steps these hammers can come out with excellent consistency.



And this depends on the rest of the piano. The last sets of Ronsen/Bacon hammers I've used have required some—albeit minimal—needling through the tenor and upper bass. The top octave has required just a bit of hardener, but not much. Once you get the scaling and the soundboard system to match these things work.




I've just been looking at a system that depends on starting with rather hard hammers which are then voiced down, primarily by needling. Consistency has been leaving something to be desired. I much prefer the approach of pressing a somewhat softer hammer that matches the scale and that requires only a minimal amount of voicing.

ddf

John, good to see you in this thread. In the last year I've auditioned two older Knabes, a six footer from c.1920 and a c.six and a half footer from somewhere around WWII, I think. (Steel wound strings.) To some extent I think the hammer issue is predicated on tonal preference. My ears *liked* the warmth of those Knabes and both had more than enough power for pianos which would be played at home. So if I were having new hammers installed, it's very likely that I'd go for Ronsens - and probably the Bacon felts at that size.

I can't express an opinion about the softness of the hammers, because I don't know enough and because both pianos needed extensive repairs. The tones were similar.

Renners should certainly produce a louder, more incisive tone. I gotta say that even in their rather dilapidated condition, the softer, warmer quality of those Knabes was just what I like to hear. If I want forté, I'll bang on it;-)

Now we are getting to the jist of my original question as for whether hot or cold at the same press intensity makes a difference as to the resiliancy and consistency of the hammer.
One particular hammermaker I talked to impliedly said "no way",as he turned up the dial.
Logically it must make some difference as for the temperature of the press as in "hot pressed" in that,if a voicer wants to increase the density a bit of a prehung hammer without the use of a chemical hardner,they iron the hammers increasing the surface density resulting in a brighter denser hammer. Del,you really think the major players/hammermakers haven't tried cold pressing acquiring results in the consistency of a hot pressed hammer.? Actually hot pressed hammers result in high density so....how hard is hard. That is why they are consistent because one can't discern a hammer that is harder than hard I just assess these hammers as they come. My perception of inconsistency revolves around unpredictability.
"So if I hear from a hammer manufacturer ex." You didn't like that last batch huh! well than try these,same hammers....

Yes, it makes a difference. Hammers using the same felt and pressed in the same cauls, one set pressed cold, the other hot will sound different. The set pressed cold will have more “bounce,” or resilience. You can feel the difference as they come out of the press and you can hear the difference on the piano. Even if they start out a bit on the hard side they will voice down more easily and more consistently.




I don't know what the various hammermakers have tried or not tried. I do know that every time I broach the subject of pressing hammers cool I meet a wall of resistance that seems impenetrable. The most immediate objection is that pressing cool will take more time and they can't afford to slow down production for anything. This, even though I have demonstrated that it is possible to press cool in the same amount of time.

It is not necessary to press absolutely cold. It is only necessary to keep the temperatures below the glass transition point—approximately 60° C.

Press temperatures are not the only issue. It is also important to control the moisture content of the felt and to control the pressure on the felt—i.e., how much the felt is compressed during the press cycle. I recently examined a press operation that started with a felt strip measuring 22 mm thick that was compressed in the caul to 16 mm. That is going to be one hard hammer whether pressed hot or cold.



You are right—by pressing an extremely hard, dense hammer it is possible to mask inconsistent quality. The only person knowing for sure is the poor voicer who must try to make some semblance of music out of the things. In the class I used to do on hammer voicing I suggested that any hammer that required 50 to 75 insertions of a three-needle voicing tool in each shoulder before they started sounding almost passable was not really a piano hammer. They needed to go back in the box and be returned to the hammermaker. If it happened that these things had arrived already installed in the piano...well, one would just need a somewhat larger box!

But it is possible to press reasonably consistent hammers that do not have the density of granite. In the end it is my opinion that a hammer requiring less voicing of any type will, in the end, be the more consistent hammer. There simply are not all that many really good voicers out there. For every shop that can do a good, fast job on these extremely hard hammers there are many more that cannot. So the voice of these pianos ends up problematic at best.

It does require careful control of the characteristics of the felt and of each step of the manufacturing process. It is, in other words, more difficult to do. But lot's of things are difficult—that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing them. The real problem, I think, is that until fairly recently neither the piano technical community nor the piano buying community has really been demanding more musical hammers. Now that there is a growing demand for such hammermakers are beginning to respond. Let's hope they haven't all forgotten how to do it.

ddf

Now I'm really curious to hear the difference between Ronsen and Renner and/or other hot pressed hammers.

moss,Hopefully you'll experience both hammer sets at their best voiced by a seasoned pro. I think from assessing especially rebuilt pianos in the marketplace /venue, I find there are MORE persons including tuner/techs than NOT, that feel that the Renner Premium Blue even right out of the box are as good as it gets and quite acceptable to most. Until you hear a true quality voicing of a Renner Premium blue or any hammer for that fact you don't really know the tonal potential of the hammer or the piano. Actually,Del is absolutely right,as usual as for there being a small minority that have this grasp in voicing whether cold pressed or hot pressed. I think you got to ruin many sets of hammers along with many bloody thumbs in paying your dues. And as for the discerning public(some at least) are more aware of the variable hammers in the marketplace. If you never experience all the variable hammers in the marketplace you'll never know they even exist.

Can't learn enough from Del,that's for sure!

I was pondering this hammer issue as for the new reissue Knabes via Samick. I'm willing to bet that Samick does not do ANY voicing at all in the factory upon recieving the PREVOICED hammers from Renner. In a production line piano that makes it even more appealing as for consistency and cost savings to and from the piano manufacture. I assume the pianos come not that much different as for voicing and prep as a Yamaha or Kawai.

Yeah, but what's the point to saving a few bucks when manufacturing pianos whose MSRPs for grands begin at +20?

While I don't have a vintage Knabe, I do have a vintage 1925 M&Hamlin BB, and I must say, as Del has pointed out, hammers can make a huge difference, and the type of hammer really makes a difference...case in point......

On my rebuilt BB, I originally had the Able "Encore" hammer. The tone was not anything to write home about, and I was never 100% happy with it...the more they were played, the harder the sound became. I had them professionally voiced 2 times, all to no avail...within a week, the hammers were hard sounding again, with very little sustain, especially in the "killer" octaves, (5th and 6th) and above.

There were 2 things I had been wanting to do since I had my piano back from the rebuilder. One was to have the Wapin bridge modification, since after hearing in person, CC2's M&H CC Wapinized piano, I was sold on the Wapin. (CC2 posts here on PW) The problem was I could not afford it at the time, due to the expense of the rebuild. I finally had it done a few months ago. At first, I, the Wapin tech, (Roy Peters, who posts here as well and did an excellent job btw!) and my rebuilder, who was there at the time, were very surprised that the sound after the Wapin mod was not that great...the BB seemed to have lost something....that is until a few weeks later, I changed the hammers to the Isaac Cadenza "S" hammers. WOW cannot describe the difference!! The tone was now round, mellow, even just out of the box, without any voicing at the piano, and the tone and sustain were great....This dramatic change was due, I believe, to the hammers.

I believe, if I am not mistaken, that the Isaac Cadenza "S" hammer is a cold-pressed hammer? I am now a true believer that the Isaac hammer is one of the best, if not the best hammer out there, and that the Wapin bridge modification is right up there with the hammers. The synergy/combination of the Wapin and the Isaac hammer has brought out this beautiful tone, timbre and a sustain in my BB that is just incredible, especially in person. The more these hammers have been played, the more mellow and beautiful they have become. with no voicing at the piano! What you will hear on these recordings, are the hammers voicing themselves so to speak.

Perhaps what's going on here, is a perfect match of the hammer to the piano and the Wapin? Could it also mean that vintage pianos such as the Knabe would also benefit from the Isaac hammer? I should also add that I have the Isaac Profundo Bass Strings, and the piano has its original 1925 soundboard.

A lot of that beauty of tone and sustain, is captured here on these recordings I made with the Wapin and the Isaac hammers in place. Please excuse my tuning, it's not perfect. Try listening to these files with a pair of headphones, they sound much better than computer speakers. There is varied collection here of different kinds of music that shows the range of tone etc that the BB is now capable of. GP

1. Ampico roll scanned and played on the LX, "Am Sergestade" by Smetna, played by Margarite Volavy.
http://www.box.net/shared/pmie73stex

2. Ampico roll scanned and played on the LX. "Ned Wayburn's Charleston" http://www.box.net/shared/kdff2xa31p

3. "I'm in love with a Beautiful Girl", on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/u1gq50bqkf

4. "Fascination" on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/3ivfosjnz6

5. "La Vie en Rose" on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/lpb096nef1

6. "Dancing in the Dark" on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/eb4bmh0uoa

7. "Reflets dans L'eau" by Ravel, on the Ampico http://www.box.net/shared/b3krit1mgd

8. "Ever Lovers, Never Friends" on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/903txqcqqm

9. "Alabamy Bound" on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/zs8756b7cz

10. "If you Knew Susie, Like I Know Susie" on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/shkulmq4nc

Grandpianoman,

If your piano lost something when the Wapin was first installed, then your piano made a dramatic improvement from having the new hammers put on, why do you credit the wapin?

Hello Keith,

Because after the Wapin with the Able hammers, the piano did not sound like does now. I had this piano over 2 years and was very aware of its tone, timbre, and sustain.

I lived with the Wapin and the Able's for several weeks, was not happy with the sound, then changed to the Isaac hammers...the transformation was dramatic ...the piano never sounded this good until I changed both the Wapin and the hammers, and, the piano originally, without the Wapin and the Isaac hammers, never had the tone and sustain it has now.

So I came to the conclusion that the correct hammer and the Wapin, in this case, contributed to the great sound I have now.

I gotta try some of those Isaac hammers. Thanks for sharing your story grandpianomadam. My piano has Abel hammers, and I believe they are the 'encore' hammers. I have only learned from the technicians who did the work that they are a 'custom' Abel hammer. The encores sold by Wally Brooks are custom made by Abel, so my hammers might be the same kind you had. I'm not fully happy with them (but haven't yet given up).

The recordings are wonderful.

Hello Charles,

Thanks for the compliment on the recordings.

Yes, you do have the same hammer as I had. What I found is that even after 2 professional voicings of the Able's, within a week, sometimes less, they were right back where they were, hard and brittle sounding, with no overtones like you hear now.

'Brittle' is the perfect word to describe what my hammers sound like. I can pluck the strings by hand and hear more the tone I like than by hitting a key in some cases.

The round tone with lots of fundamental that comes from the Isaac Hammers (both from pianomadam and on Ari Isaac's web site) reminds me of the Bösendorfer sound.

Thanks for sharing the recordings and your experiences with different hammers.

You're welcome Moss.

Here are a few more recordings.

1. "Oh Danny Boy" on the LX (Jazzy version) http://www.box.net/shared/fv9y9obc9y

2. "Jeux Deux" on the Ampico http://www.box.net/shared/en11ygvo8s

Someone had asked me if there was any processing used on these recordings, reverb etc. No processing was used other than a boost in the overall volume in Audacity.

The setup is actually quite simple, 2 Rode NT5 mics and the Samson Zoom H4 digital recorder. The mic switch on the Zoom was set to "low", hence my boosting of the overall volume level when converting the WAV file to an MP3 in Audacity.