Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Stubborn young student..

Almost every time I have a serious problem with a student of any age, I see consistently irrational behavior coming from one or both parents.

I'm not saying that ODD does not exist, but I am saying that a lot of bizarre behavoir is at least partially if not primarily caused by irrational adults.

100% agree.... In general, odd kids came from odd parents.

The Mom sounded perfectly "normal" to me, when I spoke to her and saw her. I wonder if the parents are divorced or something, though. I also believe she is the only child.

BevP

Absolutely!!! Then add the Drs on top of that who put them on drugs and the rest is history.
"If we put the kid into a constant daze, they will be easier to manage". (NOT saying there aren't any disorders out there and don't mean to offend anyone.)

It is interesting that you mention about divorce. To me teaching students from a divorce parent is also harder.

Just be patient, sooner or later, you will have certain number of students who have personalty that matches yours, and these students will refer you to their friends. Their friends usually will have the same personality like theirs. It takes one or two years to weed out students who do not match your teaching style and personality.

Ron

Originally Posted By: lvp
WAIT ONE MINUTE! I thought the dropout rate was because acoustic pianos were too loud! Now I can't have a teacher for technique either? Methinks someone had a bad teacher once upon a time. And a Betsy Ross to boot!

Mrs A: Brilliant. I havn't seen you post much here lvp. Please come back. I look forward to reading more.


Betty: Ditto!

Humor is a good thing to resort to when all else is lost - but perhaps humor really belongs as our first response.

I could learn from you! Laughter feels good!

I've never heard of ODD - can someone please explain?
Isn't opposition something we ALL have? I admit I'm a bit skeptical - like when ADD is used to account for why it's difficult to get a 10 year old boy to sit quietly at a desk for 9 hours.

When it comes to the independent student, I find that choices work the best - it disarms them from their only position, which is "don't do what the teacher says". That is their power grab. If instead you approach that kind of student with choices "The finger here is 24245. You can do that, or try another way. Whatever fingering you use has to be fluid and allow you maintain proper hand position while you moving into the next section, etc." Then you're taking away her option of defying you because YOU gave her the option, rather than her surprising you with it.
Another option is to say, "That's a great idea! You should always check the fingering to make sure it works with your hand, since hands are all different sizes. Let's see if the fingering you'd rather use still works when you connect sections."

etc. etc.
I'm sure you have tons of examples of her doing the opposite of what you say - I have a few of those myself. The jist of what I'm saying is put the power back in your hands by granting choices rather than being surprised by them.

Symptoms of ODD (from Mr. Google):

Frequent temper tantrums
Excessive arguing with adults
Often questioning rules
Active defiance and refusal to comply with adult requests and rules
Deliberate attempts to annoy or upset people
Blaming others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
Often being touchy or easily annoyed by others
Frequent anger and resentment
Mean and hateful talking when upset
Spiteful attitude and revenge seeking

If this sounds like just about every toddler on the planet, you're right. ODD is really meant to apply to those children who take these symptoms to the extreme; think of a textbook "uncontrollable" and acting-out child.

There just isn't enough information in the original post to determine whether the child in question has ODD. All children disobey and act up at times, and they're usually not ODD.

Well, perhaps we did jump the gun in "labeling" this student in this manner. To have ODD, she probably has to display several of these characteristics at once. She does have the active defiance characteristic, as evidenced by my lessons with her. I have no idea if her refusal to try my fingering was a "deliberate attempt to annoy".. but it's very possible it could have been, based on the fact that we went back and forth several times about it.

It's very possible that she questions rules and argues with her mother, based on what her mother has shared with me. The very first thing she told me was, "She is 7 years old, but you're going to think she is 11." I've not observed her being mean and hateful talking, but I did get the feeling that mother has her hands full with this one.

Mother also shared that the student is on the swim team. The mother swims, but is not a musician. Mother must have given the student some swimming advice that worked out well.
When she asked the daughter, "Why do you listen to me when it comes to swimming and not piano?", the answer from the daughter was, "because you know what you're talking about when it comes to swimming."

Mother also shared that the previous piano teacher was too "laid back".. she didn't actively correct her very much, didn't control the lessons, etc..

I'm not rushing to judgment here, but I mean, if you're describing your child to a teacher, before the teacher has met her, and these are the stories you choose to share... what conclusion am I to draw? My first impression, quite honestly, was that the child was willful.
And, I waited to see how that would manifest. And, our interaction over the fingering was an example of that.

Personally, I appreciated that a few posters made that clear to me, because, even if she doesn't "officially" have this disorder, knowing that it is possible makes her situation a bit easier for me, because now I know to "expect" this scenario going forward.

ODD? Possibly. Willful? Definitely.

I mean, when you are a student, on some level, you have to be *willing* to be taught, yes? If she wants to do her own thing and not be corrected, then why have a teacher?

BevP

This struck me the first day:

Four hour round trip for an 8 year old child? A parent who would consider this? A clue?

This is very helpful information, thank you!

I brought up the ODD guestion originally. I agree, it is hard to diagnose from a post.

ODD children are argumentative or outright disobedient in even the simplest tasks...Like using the correct finger numbers. Much more so than the average child should be and they can't help it. It can indicate the beginning of mental illness.

But there could be many reasons for this child's personality quarks. The mother is realizing this in not normal and that is a good indicator that something is wrong. It could be many things. I wont list them here.

keystring,
This could point to a problem with the parent, but could also be because of her willingness to stay with the Suzuki method. Her daughter does play several pieces fluently, and has done well in the state school music audition system. Did I mention in my OP that the student is a Suzuki student?

BevP

Wow! I certainly do. I never knew there was a name for it though.

Yet another point about this student:

If I choose to give this particular student latitude with the fingering, or perhaps, not challenge her on her flat fingered technique, what happens when she moves on to another teacher, which, she most likely will, someday?

If I choose not to correct these technical quirks, then I become another in a line of teachers who saw her poor technique and fingering choices, and did nothing about it. The parent will find another teacher, and the cycle will continue. How many of us here have taken on transfer students with poor habits and wondered what the heck happened along the way? And, then will cringe at what a horrible time we'll have trying to correct poor habits?

BevP

Playing devil's advocate (not that your student is a devil) -- but what's wrong with her fingering? Maybe she's not being defiant, maybe that fingering (1 3 1 3 5)works better for her. I have a hard time imagining why (2 4 2 4 5) would be that much more convenient. Kids often have a hard time creating space between their 4th and 5th fingers.

Sounds to me like she's headstrong, creative (i.e. wants to explore "other ways" to do fingering) and therefore is probably not a good match for Suzuki method.

I'd hesitate putting a bunch of letters after this kid and labelling her. She sounds bored to me.

~Jennifer

I personally do not see much that is wrong or diagnostic of any pathology here. I do see that I am in the minority though.
Humans come in different flavors and I think the child's mom is commendable for being upfront and apparently honest with you. Dealing with this kid will be a small challenge that will enrich your teaching skills.
Plus I hate the word "obedient". Piano class is not obedience school! I for one was always curious to see what is on the other side of obedience and "norm"..

Personally, I thought the issue had less to do with discipline and obedience than the basic expectation that teachers know more than their pupils and that lessons aren't about self-discovery. An adult student takes direction from a teacher, so why not a child? If a student isn't there to learn from the teacher, why be there at all? In public schools, the predicament is understandable because it's a compulsory situation. Piano lessons are not.

I think it's a different set of circumstances if the teacher is simply wrong or incompetent. I had such teachers as a child (for piano and in public school), and I did push back. In this case, though, there's no evidence whatsoever of inept teaching or, in my opinion, that the child is anything but inappropriately stubborn, whatever the reason for it.

Steven

Well said Bev! You are right (IMHO) to be concerned about that. Plus, when she gets further along, it will be much harder for her to do things, if she was allowed to play incorrectly in the beginning. For example: the child that was allowed to write "to" instead of "too" his entire elementary school career. He won't be changing it when he gets to middle school!

As I look in my Suzuki manual, one of the teaching points of this piece is the fingering. I'm sure most kids would want to play this passage with the fingering of 1 - 3- 5. My assumption is that Dr. Suzuki or Kataoka decided to finger this 2-4-5 as a means to stretch the fingers. I realize it might not be comfortable for some students, but I'm going "by the book" here.

If the student plays the passage with 1-3-5, they will have to change the fingering somehow to land on the lower G in the descending arpeggio that follows it.

i.e. (hopefully I can get the fingerings and notes to line up)
Please note the piece switches between C and E, then goes up to G, then arpeggiates down an entire octave to the G below the starting C. I couldn't get the notes and fingerings to line up.

Here is the student's way, I would guess, as we really never explored the what happens when you arpeggiate downward:
C E C E G E C G
1 3 1 3 5 3 2 1

Here is the way from the Suzuki book

C E C E G E C G
2 4 2 4 5 4 2 1

It seems to me that the second way is *intended* to be easier, so that the student doesn't have to switch fingers.

She may not be a great match for the Suzuki method, but the Mom is in love with it.

What prompted me to post originally was my surprise at the fact that she did not even try the other way. It's not like she tried 2-4-2-4 and said anything to communicate that she was uncomfortable. I demo'd 2-4-2-4, when she didn't
play that way, I verbally instructed her to play 2-4-2-4, and she didn't do it. That was the point of my original post, I think. At least try the fingering.. that's what learning is about, in my opinion.

This student also plays Kabalevsky's, "Clowns" entirely legato, though I've tried to get her to play it as written, with staccato's and legato's. I didn't teach her this piece. The Mom was interested in having this child play the piece at the state auditions, and it will be my job to help her polish it. Given my limited experience with this student, I'm afraid that we will disagree on how this piece should be played, as well. What should I do then? At some point, she's going to have to follow directions or face the consequences at the adjucation, right?

*sigh*
I'm all about creating harmony with each student. I do feel that the fingering issue may be indicative of a bumpy road ahead.

BevP