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Hello all,
I have an 8 year old student in her third year of lessons. She is a transfer student, having studied with 2 different Suzuki faculty in her 3 years at the school where I teach.
One teacher left abruptly mid-semester. The child's second teacher took her mid-semester, but then decided at the end of spring session she no longer wanted beginning students. I'm not sure if *this* particular student is the reason why, but.. I wouldn't be surprised. The student was then transferred to me since I taught over the summer.

The mother was very adamant about continuing in Suzuki.. even to the point of being willing to travel almost 2 hours to take lessons with the former head of the Suzuki department in her new location. She agreed to give me a try, so.. we just finished our summer lessons yesterday. I do believe that the family would like to continue with me.

OK.. so now, about the student. Her Mom warned me about her, and she wasn't kidding. This child is very willful. Wants to do everything her way, and doesn't take direction very well. She's not snotty or obnoxious in temperament, but for example, we are starting a piece, Hummel's "Ecossaise" in C major. The opening phrase is C E C E G, which is fingered 2 4 2 4 5.
I demonstrated the phrase using the above fingering. She played it with 1 3 1 3 5. (you see where this is going,right?)

I demo'd it again with 2 4, she played it 1 3. We went through this a few times, until I jokingly asked, "are you purposely trying to do it differently than I showed you?". She laughed, then followed through with the desired fingering. This is indicative of the challenges I have with this student. I'll show her one way, she will invent her own way, which will get her into big trouble later. (i.e., playing with flat fingers as opposed to curved) I'm not sure whether she is just testing me, or what, but I can tell you that I will eventually lose my patience with her. And it does make me wonder what happened with her former teacher. I do intend to ask her if I see the teacher in the fall.

I guess this is the "thing" about teaching. You can teach the best way you know how, but if the student isn't open to receiving the info you are giving.. are you still teaching? I did try and explain to the student why it was better to finger the phrase this particular way. And, I did try explaining why her flat fingered approach was going to be difficult for her. But I knew I was in trouble when I asked her, "Have your other teachers told you about playing with flat fingers?", and she said, "yes. all of them". Oh dear.


The mother has to call me to schedule a time for the fall. I intend to ask her (per my music therapy training) what the best way to motivate her daughter is, though, from our initial discussion, I'm not very sure she herself knows.

What is a good way for me to approach teaching this student? The "do it my way because I say so" approach is not going to work for this one. LOL

thanks,
BevP

When I have a kid do the opposite of what I say (the fingering thing) I don't say a word.
I will play 2 4 2 4 5 and then just wait.

Eventually they get sick of sitting there (I think it is a lot more uncomfortable for them than it is for me ) and play it. If they play it 1 3 1 3 5 again, I will repeat 2 4 2 4 5, still not say a word, and sit and wait again. If they continue to play after they played it wrong I will tell them to stop and we will do it all again.

I found arguing, cajoling and like you said, "do as I say" just aren't effective. Most the kids really do NOT like that silence.

Oh, and I'm looking right at them the whole time it's quiet too After they do finally play it, I will say something like "nicely done, continue on" or what have you.

Mom knows what works at home. I would ask if you can get the name/number of her case manager (is she Spec Ed? Possibly could be Oppositional Defiance Disorder) or at least her teacher so you can find out what works at school.

If I were a teacher, I would direct the student to use the fingering I intended at the outset. After the demonstration, I don't understand she was allowed to use her own fingering without being corrected (or why the cycle was repeated without the issue being addressed).

I would never have foreseen that an innocuous question could be a minefield, but maybe giving a child the opportunity to tell an untruth is asking for trouble. And, after all, it's irrelevant whether her past teachers told her to play with flat fingers. That was then, this is now—and you are telling her not to.

It's been many decades since I was a child taking lessons, but I assumed it's still the case that teachers instruct and students follow instructions. Doesn't everything proceed from that fundamental fact? More generally, don't children still defer to adult authority figures?

Steven

Could this child have an oppositional defiance disorder? I am fortunate to have very cooperative students and it is not because I am a good teacher. Most kids are fairly well behaved and if they are this bad, I would consider other reasons like some kind of personality disorder. Just a thought.

OOPS I see Ebony already mentioned the defiance disorder. I would put my money on it. The question is, how do express this concern to the parent. Good Luck.

HA! Wouldn't THAT be nice?!

Too many rules in place that protect the kids now, and not the teachers. Kids know it and walk all over us.

The first time I saw kids disrespecting the liasion officer and principal I was astounded. Now I see it's just a way of life.

Gosh.. why didn't I think of that? Oppositional defiant disorder. I bet you all are correct... especially after hearing Mom's frustration with her. I do expect to speak with the parent..thanks guys..

sotto voce.. I *did* correct the student, in the exact way that E/I discussed, silently. After a few tries of this, instead of displaying frustration, (which is what I was feeling, and I felt she was "baiting" me), I decided to try to joke about it. Then, she played it the correct way.

I had a student (actually, my next door neighbor) that was rumored to have ODD. I reluctantly took her as a student, and wound up, after a particularly difficult lesson, having her sign a contract requiring positive behaviors at lessons. Mom signed it, student signed it, and we had 1 great lesson after that. The student was prepared and everything. Then she took vacation, a close relative of hers died.. and I never saw her as a student again, much to my relief. My other neighbors even asked me.. "You're teaching XXXXXX? Good luck!"..

Wow.. ODD. I'll have to check my DSM-IV. Thanks, all!
BevP

I don't believe that any teacher is qualified to correct fingering, or technique, or posture, etc. These will all vary depending
on the physiology and psychology of the individual student. What works for one person may cause serious physical
problems with another. The student is right here, not the teacher, because the student knows his own body
and what will work best for it. Trying to force some theoretically correct fingering on her can cause serious physical
harm if it is not right for her physiology and psychology.

This is why the dropout rate is so high in piano. Teachers force supposedly correct fingering on the student,
typically the fingering on the score, which was put in by an editorial hack at the music publisher, a one-size-fits-all,
generic fingering that was devised in the early 1900's by a hack to fit most consumers' hands. This is hardly
going to be the right fingering for everyone. But this kind of generic fingering is forced on students from day
one, and they persist with it, even reaching quite high levels with it, but eventually the body and mind will
rebel against doing something that does not suit it, and the playing will be shut down, either by injury, or
loss of interest, or lousy playing, etc.

WOWZA!!!! GYRO WROTE ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE TEXT BOX!!!!!!!!!

Gyro
This is an absolutely ridiculous post. No beginner knows what's best for their body sitting at the piano. The human body (especially that of a child) is extremely adaptable. If a beginning student was left to their own devices as far as fingering and posture etc. goes THAT is what would eventually cause serious physical harm. I've taught hundreds of students in my career from 5 year old beginners up to (currently) University level performance majors. The vast majority of students who have had problems with tendonitis and other injuries are the ones with strange and unorthodox technical habits that were never corrected.
It is absolutely necessary for a teacher to correct technique and posture when working with a student of any level

"Teachers force supposedly correct fingering on the student, typically the fingering on the score, which was put in by an editorial hack at the music publisher, a one-size-fits-all, generic fingering that was devised in the early 1900's by a hack to fit most consumers' hands. This is hardly going to be the right fingering for everyone."

I know. Human hands have changed so much since the 1900s.

:-D

Gyro's post has some merit. The fingering added by editors doesn't always work. I actually prefer editions that give zero fingering, so I can write in my own instead of crossing out a bunch of editorialized fingerings.

I do have students who rebel against proper fingering. They prefer to come up with their own illogical, crazy fingerings. They play the same passage ten times and will use ten different sets of fingering. Alas, these are the kids who play poorly, with much stumbling, and ultimately quit piano because they sound bad.

I want to ask you if asking her to say aloud the finger numbers marked on the page would make her more accountable. If she says "2" "4", you both would expect the same result. Is it possible she doesn't know her finger numbers? Or, maybe she can't access them when she thinks of the finger number and she has absolute digit confusion? You could go to a table top and remove the sound from the fingering equation - sitting next to her so that she can copy your movements of what you expect to see.

I think it would be important to see that she can reply to the demands of fingering in music before she be allowed to choose the fingering as the music progresses. Some teaches would allow this innate selection, some wouldn't. Certainly what she is doing does not reflect discipline and control, which is what most of us would like to see in our students habits.

She may be random/abstract and you are concrete/sequential - opposing forces. Patience and endurance is the only way through this one.

After enough of this resistance from her, I would have probably said, "We will be here on this point for the rest of the lesson until you cooperate with the markings on the music." The next remark might be "Are you having a learning problem about this?" "Do you find this difficult?"

Perhaps I have less rebellion about fingering because I start students with pre-charts which require a keyboard graphical positon (most of the beginning ones are Middle C - superimposed thumbs - or placement of thumbs on adjacent notes). The only way to play the song is to follow the finger numbers. The "music" looks like this:

RH ____________________
LH

The numbers are played in steady TA's and any numbers written closely together are ti ti's.
Example of Bingo starting: LH 4 1 1 4 4 3 3 4 4 1 1
Example of Happy Birthday starting: LH 44 3 4 1 2 -

So we have the disciplined impulse that we work with first before exacting letter names of the keys or reading from the music staff. To me, this is an incredible way of starting because impulses do need to be controlled and there must be a first thought sent of which hand/which finger will touch the key from the music staff to the keyboard location. This seems to prep them enough, and build confidence. Using many graphics for positions builds visual acuity. Making it so easy for them to make music lets their ears kick in to enjoy the music they are making. It seems to work best with songs they already know from childhood or folk sources.

Through the use of precharts the discipline of following finger number is required. This means that later the student will always note fingering indications in the music.

So I use all fingerings to start with and as we have success in reading different positions on the music staff, the need for number the notes is reduced. You might only have to number the starting notes on each line, or when the position changes. At this point, I recommend teaching by distance and direction of intervals as we are still working with shaping melodies.

Tracking two notes, one each per hand is the next step. Keeping the coordination simple makes for success and then working through more complicated combinations of Left/Right/Together.

It's really difficult when student's present innate obstacles to learning - it's hard to get their attention and cooperation - since they only know what they know in how to function.

We teach them how to accept, think, plan and build.

We can't win this one without their interest and cooperation.

While doing this, it's important not to do damage to their self esteem or be too negative in our approach. Situations like this can bring out the "beast" in the teacher and the student. Grrr.

WAIT ONE MINUTE! I thought the dropout rate was because acoustic pianos were too loud! Now I can't have a teacher for technique either? Methinks someone had a bad teacher once upon a time. And a Betsy Ross to boot!

Okay, I skimmed but didn't read all. It would seem I'm also meaner than you are... Generally if something's weird in the music, but there's a reason, we/the student will try it both ways, and often enough when trying to speed it up things simply just don't work out with one of the ways... if they do, then hey, so what? For instance, I'd like to see really fast flat-fingered scales. (If the ODD thing doesn't work out, it's worth a try?)

Gyro, most students are normal human being. Very few, especially if the pieces are beginner pices, do we need to alter the fingering to fit certain students. When the pieces are advance, most likely we may need to accomodate the physical differences. For example, Fur Elise, 99.99999% of normal human beings will have no problem with 5454.... if the student insisted on using difference fingering, the teacher should take a look, and find out why using 54545...is not comfortable for this particular student. If the student wants to use different fingering just for the sake of using crazing fingering, the teacher should insist on using normal fingering.

I will ask this student when she returns to say the finger numbers as we do the passage. I see a lot of logic, however, in sticking to the fingering as it's written. It's so much for me to explain, but the passage as written starts on treble C, arpeggiates up to G, which is played with the pinky, then arpeggiates down to the G in "middle C" position. Starting this passage on 2 leaves the thumb free to finger the G in middle C position, with little change in hand position. From what I've observed with this student, the less hand movement, the better.

I'm not interested in getting into a power struggle with this student, either, so I hope that by speaking with the mother, I can get some insight on how to proceed with her.

BevP

Brilliant. I havn't seen you post much here lvp. Please come back. I look forward to reading more.