Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical Jazz Piano by Mark Levine re:modes- confusing??

Here is a book by a great jazz piano teacher Ray Santisi I studied with at Berklee years ago. I am ordering myself from Amazon and a CD is included to hear the lessons. The link is:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...amp;pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

Long link, yikes! Anyway, this book looks like a good jazz technique source. When I get it, I will review it here and see if it's something that could benefit other jazz piano students.

katt

Mark Levine's book is what made me realize I needed a teacher. He doesn't really fill in the blanks.

I'm sorry, that was a bit vague. Mark Levine's book as I see it now is a sort of outline. From his comments/text it seems he expects the student to listen to a lot of music (he lists recommended recordings) and learn from that. In a way it is ear training, listening and learning and applying. He does not give you specifics but seems to want the reader to develop those by listening. So I personally didn't get enough direction from that and ended up seeking a teacher.

Hmm - that seems you've hit the nail on the head there - well worded. Completely agree.

I recently tried to (re-)read a book I got about a year ago called "Jazz Theory and Practise". It has some interesting points, but there's no way I could 'learn jazz' from it... And some bits are hard to read for a beginner. Has anyone else read/got this? Any opinions?

But what I have noticed is that as I continue my piano lessons with my teacher, and read more on the internet, watch youtube videos, read this forum etc, parts of the book that i previously read will 'click', and building blocks will fall together in my head now & then... pennys drop sort of thing. I think books are great, but only a small part of the big picture.

The other theme in this thread seems to be about learning jazz by experimenting and just by ear... At first I couldnt believe this, but even in these last few weeks, improvising using basic chord notes and scales over basic progressions, I've had a lot of realisations, and definitely do believe now that 'by ear' and just experimenting is a BIIG part of it!

Jazzwee, thanks for your explanation of modes. That is super fantastic and really gave me good insight into understanding them.

okay I may have exaggerated the point here.. you can do some of the modal/pentatonic stuff over bebop tunes but i wouldn't recommend doing them if you don't have your bebop stuff together. I really don't think it's helpful for a beginning student to really think about modes, it's too much information, and I think you should be more focused on just making the changes.

I see too many people who are starting out, and they want to do all these substitution, pentatonic and other out stuff, when they can't even convincingly make the changes to a standard tune. I think learning in jazz is still progressive to a certain extent.. you need to learn to make the changes, learn to use extensions like Bird and Diz did, and once you can do that comfortably than you can think about doing more out or modal stuff.

I mean what's the point of playing phrygian mode over V7 if you don't even know how to resolve it correctly/normally?

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Jazzwee,

Recently I've got used to not understanding everything you say, but this I would like to understand better:



So, first off, is that an E min 7b5? Is that what the dash means. That would make sense.

Second, what do you mean by the 'parent scale' of the chord? Do you mean what key it's in? A chord can be in lots of keys.

If you look at the progression you mention, it is clearly a ii-V-i in D minor.

But how is a chord a mode of a scale? They contain notes from the scale, certainly, and nothing outwith it.

Yes TLT, E-7b5 is another common shortcut representation of E half diminished, or E minor 7 (b5).



Yes a chord can be in 2-3 keys depending on whether it is major or minor. That's why you search for a context in the progression. In a Major ii-V-I, the "parent scale" would be the Ionian Mode, or mode of the I chord. For example, You could look at Autumn Leaves as just modes of the G scale. It simplifies things greatly if you can see at a glance that the chords follow a circle of fifths progression (4-7-3-6-2-5-1). There are other ways to look at it but this is the simplest view.




When you say notes from a scale, you likely think in terms of 1-3-5-7 of the chord. But when you solo, you may want to also know all the extensions (9, 11, 13). Well when you combine these extensions with the original chord, guess what you get? It will be a mode of the scale. You will then know if the 9/11/13 should be flatted or sharped or kept natural. That's very helpful in soloing. So it is important to know all the notes you can play for a half diminished chord for example (like your E-m7b5). The 1-3-5-7 is obvious but do you play a b9 or natural 9?

Modes are stepping stone to understanding what's going on. But others have memorized all the modes. I don't remember them anymore. I just recall the shape of the scale relating to a Half Diminished for example. I know it looks like a diminished-whole-tone scale. But I can't remember which particular mode it is of the melodic minor unless I open the Levine book. And frankly, I'm not sure it matters, once I get the gist of the purpose. (Though I remember it is the last 2 modes ).

I guess I am the same way too with modes/scales. I know you can play different scale if you are playing G7#11(D Melodic Minor) or G7Alt(Ab melodic Minor) or G phrygian(Eb major). There are tons of possibilities but I really don't think in modes... I just don't really see the point thinking that way. If I want to play out, I guess what I'll do is superimpose different ii-Vs instead of thinking of different exotic modes you can use over the chords.

Sure you can play Modes from D Harmonic Minor on G and call it G7#9#11 or modes,or modes of C melodic minor and call it G7b13 or C harmonic minor for G7b9b13 or Bb melodic minor for G7b9#11b13....etc you can go on forever like this

but to me it becomes more academic. Maybe other people have found ways to use them musically, but I guess I haven't found a use for them.. and when I transcribe solos, I really don't hear people using these exotic modes.

I once met this person who was studying modes.. and she was learning the super-locrian modes from intervals it was made of ..(like half HS WS WS HS)..I thought it was ridiculous.. I just told her that it's a lot easier to just think of the melodic minor scale half step up rather than thinking of it that way.

First day and I love this site already!

I have the Levine book. It really helped me organize theory AFTER the fact. I'd already learned basic scale theory and chord voicings. But Mark's book helped me apply the specific "licks" and voicings (which I had transcribed) CONCEPTUALLY. It demonstrated how my stock Emi7(b5) voicing (or lick) could be used on G minor sounds(w/MAJ7) or C dominant sounds...or really exotic A minor sounds.

There is a real disconnect, however, in learning theory and learning improvisation. The great improvisors hear melody BEFORE theory. Bird wasn't "thinking" about the notes in a Bb Maj scale...he was HEARING beautiful melodies over all those progression he'd play.

Every now and then, I'll run into a great blues guitar player who can burn on any tune - blues, jazz, whatever. I'll think "How can this cat play pentatonic blues on Giant Steps and sound SO cool?" And I'm certain if we transcribed his solo note-for-note, it would drive music theorists nuts! But the conviction of the melody is SO strong, that you can't really argue with it. It sounds like music. It feels like music. Must be music! I love those cats.

I grew up singing in church and, in retrospect, I was practicing improv YEARS before I heard jazz or knew what a solo was. All of those old hymns are so similar: I-IV-V...maybe VI minor...every now and then the very hip IV minor. At an early age, I would try and "force" a different hymn melody over the hymn the congregation would be singing. If a note didn't work over a paticular chord, I'd just adjust - always a half-step away from a good note, right?

Today, when I'm at my best, I'm playing that same way. Believe me, it doesn't happen EVERY time. But AT MY BEST, I sit very quietly and try to sing melodies BEFORE I think about chords. Often, when I'm VERY disciplined, I might play NOTHING for multiple bars. It was scary at first. But once I got used to the space, it was incredibly liberating! And listening back to my own performances, these very lyrical and spacious solos make me smile the most.

Here is an excercise that has become a big part of my practice routine (in addition to scales, technique and theory.) Play a chord in the left hand. LISTEN to the sound of the chord. KEEP listening. Listen some more...seriously. Try and hear a melody. If you don't hear one, DON'T play anything! Just play the left hand chord again and listen...seriously. If you check out lots of music, and spend time singing the melodies you hear (sing them in your head AND out loud), you can train your brain to hear these melodies "spontaneously" as you hear chords. These spontaneous melodies are what will eventually become YOUR sound - even if they are stolen in part OR in whole from someone else.

Now, all that's left, is to teach these beautiful melodies to YOUR FINGERS. That should keep us all very busy for 10, 20, or 40 years! ;-)

When trying to learn to play jazz piano I bought a lot of books and videos - and they each helped a little in different ways. But I also found a lot of the theory confusing and off-putting. Much more helpful was listening to jazz pianists.

And, most helpful by far, was playing lots and lots of jazz - by myself, with the Aebersold play-along CDs and then with other musicians. I firmly believe that the best way to learn how to do something is to just do it. The more I played, the better I got and, hopefully, will continue to do so.

My personal breakthrough, as suggested by pauldav1d, was singing along as I soloed. My lines instantly became more melodic, interesting and contained better phrasing. So, I suggest not getting bogged down in books. Close the book, go over to the piano and start singing as you play.

Now, there we differ. When I say 'notes from a scale' I just mean the notes from that scale, in no particular order. The order doesn't matter.

This is where I think I'm confused with modes. I can play the scale of C starting and ending on C, aka C major. I can play the scale of C starting and ending on D, but if I'm thinking that C is do and D is re, then it's still C major. Better yet, I play a piece of music in C and it won't necessarily begin and end on C. That's not a problem. I can do all of this without bringing in modes at all.

I think people use the word 'mode' to mean different things and this is getting me confused. I need to go and check something out before I take this any further.

Back to jazzwee...



I get the notes of the scale!



Now that's an interesting question. I had wondering about this. I'm guessing - you play whatever is in the key you are in? So, if I'm playing a iii chord, I play a flattened 9th? Just a guess...

Forgive me for FUMOPping, and please bear with me if I am totally wrong, or just stating the blindingly obvious.

I'm trying to work out modes and how they work. I generally start with Wikipedia, so I read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_mode

Now what I've done is to take 3 of the tunes Wiki notes as being in Dorian mode (Scarborough Fair, Drunken Sailor and Eleanor Rigby - I could sing all of these songs long before I ever heard of modes). I've taken them all to the piano and, yes they are in Dorian mode. I tried to make them fit a minor key, but that didn't work. Compared to the natural minor, they have a raised 6th.

So I can accept that these songs exist in a scale that goes: do re ma fa so la ta do, and that this is called the Dorian mode. That is fine.

But then when someone says something like: "play 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 and you end up with a mode of the scale" - I get terribly confused. Because here 'mode' just seems to mean - the notes of the key, but not necessarily as you learned them as a scale.

Jazzwee, please don't think I'm picking on you, I've noticed lots of people on this forum using 'mode' like this. But if you could give me some idea of whether I'm headed in the right direction, that would be great!

Go look at tunes like Naima and Infant Eyes. Practically every chord requires a different mode for improvisation.

What do you mean by 'mode'?

just remember, zoot, that when you play dorian modes NEVER to use chromatic enclosures.

greetings

ROFL! I promise - I will never, ever use chromatic enclosures, not a single one, at least, not when playing in dorian!

Edit: If anyone else would like to confuse me further by referring me to other music or features of theory that are unfamiliar, now is the time!

Perhaps I should also add that I am not Zoot (I lack the requisite green face and blue hair), but that I am quoting him in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgfZVNv6w2E

I don’t know Levine’s book, but I have studied from a few others.

Truth is these are not easy concepts to digest and I doubt anyone can come up with a written explanation that you can immediately digest and apply. Jazz harmony can be difficult to understand, even in you have a good ear, there is no other way about it.

TLT, I think this discussion went several steps beyond what I thought you understood. To understand modes, just go to your keyboard and play a C scale, and start a C. So there are eighth notes you just played.

Now, play the same scale, but start a D. Different sounding right? Like a minor. This is the "Dorian Mode".

Next play the same scale, but start at E. On and on until you get to B.

So this shows that a scale has some interesting sounds in it depending on what the starting note is.

This gets you the modes of the Major Scale. Then there are modes of other scales, like the Melodic Minor scale, which is used a lot in Jazz.

Now once you've heard what I'm demonstrating here, you'll need to go to Wikipedia and read up on the modes. Levine dedicates a lot of pages to this.

Let's now go back to the Dorian mode above (second mode of major scale). Notice that every other note of the mode is just 1-3-5-7 of the chord. So you already have half of each mode by finding the chord tones. All you need to know is what's in between.

It is quite possible to play well if you know all the chord tones without ever knowing modes, since you automatically already know 4. Often there are just 3 more notes to figure out. The 9,11,13 (flat, sharp or natural). I personally think in chord tones and not in "scales" or "modes" although I understand exactly how it is derived. My problem with teaching modes is that it can be misunderstood to mean that one should improvise in a scalar fashion, which sounds really bad.