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#1237346 07/25/09 08:37 PM
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What would you recommend for someone who was just going to start out for sound equipment...low cost and minimalist.

For a digital piano, acoustic and electric guitar, and two vocalists?

For smaller indoor venues.

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Good Question! I'm interested in what people respond with cuz I am in a similar boat!

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one word: vintage!

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Originally Posted by Nikalette
What would you recommend for someone who was just going to start out for sound equipment...low cost and minimalist.

For a digital piano, acoustic and electric guitar, and two vocalists?

For smaller indoor venues.

Let's leave out the electric guitar for a moment, which brings up its own set of problems. You need a PA system of some kind. This is a collection of functions: Mixing, equalization, effects (reverb, mostly) amplification and speakers. The larger the system, the more likely that all of these will be in separate units. But for simplicity, cost and portability, you'll want to get those things in as few boxes as possible.

At the level you describe, you will probably end up with either a combo PA "Head", (comprising all the aforementioned functions except the speakers) and "passive" speakers, or an integrated mixer/console with "powered" speakers.

Powered speakers are speaker cabinets with amplifiers built into them. They've become very popular. One of the pluses of having the amplifier(s) built into the speaker cabinet itself is that there is that they are frequently designed with protection circuitry that makes it harder to blow the drivers (woofer and horn driver) than it would be with a passive speaker and a separate amp. I use a JBL EON G2 as my keyboard amp. I've been using it for over a year, maybe 150 gigs so far. Various mishaps have occurred that made loud and nasty noises come out of it, but so far (knock, um, plastic, the cases are made of plastic) ) the speaker and horn drivers have been OK.

Speakers, powered or not, come in different configurations, but for your purposes, they will consist of a woofer (low frequency speaker) and a horn in the same cabinet. I urge you not to settle for cabinets that have a woofer and "tweeters" (very small speakers that can only reproduce the highest frequencies). These leave a frequency response "hole" between the highest frequency the woofer can usably reproduce and the lowest frequency the tweeters can put out. Think "annoying mobile DJ" sound. The missing frequencies are critical for the vocal, guitar and keyboard. Be careful, some tweeters are designed to look like small plastic horns.

The most important decision you'll have to make is how big a woofer you can afford and are willing to carry. Even as a duo (I'm assuming) and without a bass player, you'll probably want to make some bass sound; the lower notes on the keyboard, for instance. 15" woofers are nice for that, and nothing larger is necessary for your use. But can you get away with 12"? That's up to you. You'll really want to find a way to play your instruments through a few kinds of speakers. A weekday in a music store, during school hours preferably, might be a good time. If you find a helpful salesperson (that's sometimes a big "if") that is willing to let you experiment in his store, I think it's the right thing to do to buy from him. You can bargain, using evidence of prices researched on the 'net, but it's poor form to take an hour or two of a guy's time and effort only to buy it elsewhere.

Larger louder groups like mine usually have "Main" speakers for the audience to hear and "monitor" speakers for the musicians to hear, at least for the vocals. You won't want the extra expense and complication yet. If you don't play too loudly you may be able to get away with putting the speakers behind you and out to the sides. This way they can serve both functions. But you'll probably want to get stands for them, to get them up high enough so that listeners in the back are not blocked by people in the front. Hey, you're good, right? Of course there'll be enough people to make that important.

Your "mixer" will depend on the type of speakers. If you get "passive" speakers - speakers without amplifiers - you'll need to get a "head" with an amplifier in it. (yes, the amp could be separate, but I sense from your original post that you are new to this, and the fewer complications and the lower the cost the better).

The mixer will need enough "channels" to accommodate the greatest number of mikes and other inputs that you can imagine using. It used to be that all inputs would be able to take microphones, but these days some are just for "line" sources (like your keyboard*). Whatever confusing wording may be used, microphone inputs have "XLR" connectors, about 3/4" round, with three little holes in them. You'll need enough of these for any vocal mikes you may need , and to mike the acoustic guitar.

The acoustic might be an acoustic/electric, in which case I'll leave it to someone more familiar with these to tell you if you can go into a "line" input, or if you'll need a "direct box", which is a separate small unit, and requires a microphone-style mixer input, but no microphone.

Get a mixer with a few extra inputs. You might expand your group, invite a friend over, want to play MP3s between sets or have an input go bad.

The mixer, or combo head, will need to have reverberation, at least. Internal effects units in mixers tend not to be so great, but you can probably add an outboard unit on later. Ask the salesman if the mixer has the required "Aux Output" to allow this. Ask someone else if he hems and haws, or can't show you where it is.

Any mixer you can use will have tone controls, Bass and Treble at least. You'll want these on ALL the channels you intend to use. This also used to be standard, but there are tiny mixers these days claiming 6 or 8 or 14 channels that have only a couple of full-function ones. The mixer may also have some sort of overall graphic EQ to shape the tone of the sound to fit the speakers and the room. This, used judiciously and with caution by novices, can be a good thing.

I won't go into microphones here. There are too many. Shure 58s are decent-sounding and don't break. Beyond that, try out some that you can afford, preferably with the speakers you want to buy. When working out your budget, don't forget that you'll need cables. But don't buy special magic "oxygen-free copper wound by virgin nuns in remote clifftop monasteries" wire. Quality construction and connectors will stand up to abuse, but any decent wire will get your signal from place to place unscathed. This especially goes for speaker cables.

Should you buy used? Maybe. There are lots of folks like you, (but not nearly as good as you, of course), who buy gear and never take it out of their basement. That could be an excellent person to buy from, the equivalent of the little old lady who only took the car to church on Sunday. But it's hard to be sure that the little old lady doesn't have a punk grand-nephew who drives the car on the beach with his slacker friends, and it's hard to know if the guy in the basement uses his system to play back Rage Against The Machine at top volume on Friday nights, for his slacker friends. You'll want to try it out, as loud as it will comfortably go. Make sure each woofer and each horn works. Do you hear any odd noises, like maybe a speaker is about to go? Try all the channels and controls too.

When you get locally famous, as surely you will, will you just have to scrap the gear you've bought for larger stuff? Not necessarily. One of my band's singers had a small PA years ago. We're still using his 12" JBL EONs for vocal monitors. (Those things are indestructible). Another singer carries a Mackie combo PA head, just in case any part of our regular system goes down. We used it once as a bass guitar amp. The mikes will be usable even if you expand, as will the cables and stands, probably.

I commend you if you've made it this far. I do tend to get wordy. Good luck and enjoy

*the keyboard is not technically a line-level source, but that doesn't matter for this level of discussion

Last edited by gdguarino; 07/26/09 11:40 AM.

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Oh yeah, about the electric guitar...

A guitar amp, with its characteristic lousy (by hi-fi standars) frequency response and distortion, is part of the sound of an electric guitar. Running an electric guitar through a relatively high fidelity system like the ones I described will sound inappropriate. You need something to "mess up" the sound first. So if there is to be electric guitar, he'll need his own dedicated amp. There are, I believe, some guitar and amp modeling devices out there that could be used, but this would probably be over-expensive and more complex than necessary. As I am not an expert on the state and cost of modeling devices, I could be wrong about this.


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Greg: Thank you so much for the detailed response. That's very kind of you and extremely helpful.

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If there is a good pro audio store in your area, you could probably find someone who can discuss your needs with you. Or if there is a sound person at a club you go to, that can be a good source of information. Hiring someone to help you with your decision is likely to be cheaper than making the wrong decision on your own.


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Greg,
You said
"I use a JBL EON G2 as my keyboard amp. I've been using it for over a year, maybe 150 gigs so far. Various mishaps have occurred that made loud and nasty noises come out of it, but so far (knock, um, plastic, the cases are made of plastic) ) the speaker and horn drivers have been OK."

I've been looking at those also. Do you use just one, or did you have to buy two and run them stereo?


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Originally Posted by TimR
Greg,
You said
"I use a JBL EON G2 as my keyboard amp...."

I've been looking at those also. Do you use just one, or did you have to buy two and run them stereo?

I use one. I use it like you'd use a regular keyboard amp, except with decent sound and more power. grin

Seriously...don't buy a keyboard amp. If the meager "mixing" capabilities of the EON won't cut it, get yourself a small mixer too.

Here's a thread I started about my keyboard amplification search, that ended up with the EON.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/664248/1.html


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For anyone interested in playing B3 sounds along with piano sounds, my favorite amp for smaller venues is the motion sound KBR-3D. I love it because you don't have to haul around two separate amps. You have one channel that runs through the rotating speaker (ie leslie) and two other channels for regular keyboard sounds.

Also, depending on what you plan on doing for the gigs you play, i'm in love with the nord stage 88. My goal is to have a minimal amount of equipment but not sacrifice too much on sound and feel. The stage is awesome for portability if you want to keep all 88 keys and also want good vintage sounds (rhoses, wurly, clav, hammond, etc)...

I only wish i thought of this set up years earlier! it'll save you back pain.

Oh, one other great investment i made is the musicians rock cart (i believe that's what it's called). they sell em at guitar center. They fold up into nothing and can hold a fairly heavy load without breaking...

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Greg, et al,

Excellent advice. If you have the budget, JBL Pro is always a good bet.

Nikalette, For a band on a tight budget, check out the Fender Passport series of "all-in-one" PA systems, like the PD-500. It is light, fairly powerful, inexpensive, and sounds good. The kit comes with a mic/cable, and speaker cables. The compact size will easily fit in most small cars, while allowing space for other instruments -- musicians will have to travel on the roof rack. Snapped together, it is about the size of a large suitcase. It might be just the ticket for a group, like yours. Street price is around $1,400. You can get a smaller PA, the Fender PD-250, for around $850. Yamaha also makes a series of combo PA systems for well under $1,000.

These PA systems are very easy to set-up, and when the speakers are mounted on a sturdy set of stands, provide good coverage for small to medium size gigs.

IMHO, I would avoid vintage or used PA equipment, unless you really know what you are buying. In general, PA systems lead hard lives, so new equipment is a much safer, and more reliable, purchase.

Don't forget the gaffers tape (Never use duct tape on your cords and cables!) and a high-quality, heavy-gauge wire, extension cord. Home Depot carries a line of "contractor quality" extension cords in various lengths with heavy-duty plugs that will do the trick. They are well worth the additional expense ($60.00 and up) over the cheapo 100' cords for $9.99.

Good luck!

David

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Powered speakers are the way to go. Stereo isn't necessary, especially if you have something like a Yamaha CP33, which has a "mono piano" setting. If not, just run the stereo outs into two separate channels in the mixer and make sure both are panned into your one speaker.

Running live music in stereo can be a muddy nightmare... you see, the problem with live sound is sound bouncing off walls and hitting the listener's ears at slightly delayed times, making the music smear and become unclear as the sound waves interact. Think of two people making ripples in a swimming pool--- when the ripples meet, they make extra big waves and troughs. Just one person making ripples? You get nicer more even rings emanating from that person until they hit the walls of the pool and reflect back.

We have two powered speakers in our band, and I have taken to putting them one above the other rather then putting them in stereo. It's hard for the band to accept since they're all so used to their home and car stereos, but it has really reduced feedback and helped clarify the sound overall.

Apologies if this was too technical. We use the mackie powered speakers-- the equivalent of the JBL eons mentioned above. smile

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http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-SRM450-v2-Active-Loudspeaker?sku=600652 the mackie speaker we use.

here's a cheap copy of this speaker, made by a company with a reputation for cutting corners, but hey, you get what you pay for. This plus a cheap mixer would get you there for cheap, and if you really are a complete beginner, you won't so much know the difference. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...B212A-Active-2Way-Loudspeaker?sku=600735 Most folks recommend not wasting $$$ on the cheap stuff, since you're guaranteed to need to replace it... whether you break it or you improve your musicianship to the point that demands something better. The behringer is half the power and half the price. The Mackie will get you noise violations from your friendly neighborhood cop. smile

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I really appreciate all the advice here. Over on the DP forum, someone posted a question about keyboard amps vs. PA and someone recommended the Roland Cube, which is cheap. It has 1 mike input and it looks like the different inputs/channels can be adjusted separately, so that 1 might be enough for me, but with another vocalist we would need 2 of these. However, they don't have a horn, just tweeters and woofers. Would that be a disadvantage for both the keyboard and vocals and does anyone have any thoughts on the Roland Cube. Thanks.

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Nikalette,
A caution--a stereo DP may not sound very good using just the L(mono) out. That is my experience with a Roland fp-7. Some who post here and at Harmony Central recommend using the stereo, R&L outs. I would like to see a post on the technical aspects around this issue. The Yamaha Stagepas 300, about $600, gets good reviews. A lot of detail at the Yamaha page on this product.


Bob M

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