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This isn't just me raging and venting ...
The music education in my school is appauling I fault this to an oblivious music teacher in my school. I don't know how music is taught in the states but in Australia at a high school level music is coumpulsory when a student is 12 and 13, after that students may choose to do music as part of their schooling.

I have chosen to do music as one of my subjects amongst history, sociology, English studies, Literature, creative writing and mathematics.

OK now for my fustrations, the music teacher DOES NOT let students perform music of a classical nature because the 'kids wont like it' reasonable ... but I mean everyone in the school ends up doing pop. There is NO classical music performed in the school. I recently completed a sociology paper about music education and its effects on teenagers, after gatherin statistics from teenagers I found that suprisingly many teenagers DO listen to SOME classical.

Anyways a classical pianist along with myself asked her if we can perform classical and she said no. With that she is CHOOSING the repertoire of the performers. SHE is telling people what to do.

I dont think its good to underestimate an audience, teenagers dont hate classical ... with enough exposure they do enjoy it! Anyways ... I'm nearing my time in school ... I shouldnt be angry or fustrated but I wonder if anyone has any contributions or thoughts ... please share. Sometimes I can be too much of an idealist that contending with people lke her is a nightmare ... would you tell your students to not peform classical?

Ouch! Are you in year 11/12? Do you mean she is saying you can't perform a classical piece as part of your performance exam for the HSC??

Unfortunately music education is sub-standard in a lot of schools. It really depends on who is teaching it. The sad thing is that these teacher's get away with it because there are always good students like yourself who take private lessons and will get top grades at the end of the day. When the results come back it looks like they are doing a great job which is what matters most to the management at the school who don't really care what goes on in the classroom.

No I can do it for my HSC, once I started talking about the vocal teacher and piano teacher years ago ... she stopped telling me what to do but I have to sing Rodger and Hammerstein when I am in school for school performances, I'm not allowed to do anything from an opera or even some 'classical' sounding theatre because the 'kids wont like it'.

Its school concerts ... things that promote 'school spirit' where I cant do anything classical. Music education varies from school to school and community to community. I've just realised that my school is the bottom of the barrel.

It can be fustrating sometimes I guess and I understand what you are saying regarding music education Chris. Teaching can be a fustrating job especailly music. I compared the attitudes of music lessons amongst working class communities to affluent communities. Amongst some working class communities, parents send their kids to music lessons because they want their kids to be 'cultured' like the affluent, they send their kids to music lessos but arent involved. Others think that music is unessacary. Contrastingly in affluent communities teachers aren't genearally respected and people send their children to cocirricular activties beacues its just the norm.

Music is an enriching experience ... people seem to take muscians for granted.

With that said, I guess I shouldnt be so mad. I just get ticked that there is an idiot 'boss' on top.

I'm not sure you should be describing adults with such words as "stupid" and "idiot." If I describe my choir students as "stupid" and "idiot," they'd have my head on a platter. Try "discouraging" or "disappointing"--those adjectives serve your purpose better.

There's nothing wrong with singing Rodgers and Hammerstein. Are you kidding me? What do you find so offensive about Rodgers and Hammerstein???

You seem to feel very strongly about it. Go talk to your teacher, take a few of your like-minded students with you. Show her there are others with the same idea. Have a sit-down, heart to heart and tell her that you have researched and found that some teenagers do like classical. Bring the documentation. Bring the pieces that you would like to perform, and tell her why you feel so strongly about it. If she still says no, go to the administration. Find out who the music department lead is and start there.

If she is your teacher, she is not the "idiot boss on top", there are many above her.

You do not have to accept what the teacher is suggesting. I am not suggesting that you ambush her, just point out how strongly you feel about it and that there are others that feel the same.

You may have a fight on your hands, but you will be doing a favor for everyone younger than you.

Good luck, let us know what you end up doing!

Sorry AZNpiano ... nothings wrong with Rodger and Hammerstein ... I just like to sing OTHER THINGS ... Favorite things, sound of music, edelweiss, 16 going on 17 ... is it just me or do you get the feeling that I should move away from the same musical? AZNpiano I wonder, ...I dont mean to come accross as an angry ansty teenager but ... if I was an adult (which I will'offically' be soon) ... if I was her equal would it be 'ok' to call her an 'idiot' and 'stupid' ...? The rules and assignements we have to ettique is interesting to me ... espcially when studying lingustics.

I could use stronger language ... but thats another matter .. its not just rigid repertoire choice that 'dissapoints' me ... its the content that she teaches everyone ... Sorry I dont mean to sound like a demeaning teenager but when your superiors dissapoint you begin to feel rather fustrated at the whole system. I can't stand somebody who doesnt communicate to students, someone who ASSUMES ... rather than face reality, people that live in fantasy world irk me.

I guess I could just be having a bad day but I hate BEING a favorite, being called pet names ... she forgets everybody elses' name and calls them by demeaning names, if she ever tells kids off she ties in a sacred area "god made you deformed", being told to photocopy things for her, being told to chase teachers around, to find her keys, to run errands out of school for her, to get things that are inside her school, being TOLD to make multiple visits to a print shop carring a heavy object on the train and my way back home, to carry things around, to go to excursions excluding major works of other subjects, being told to partake in the dodgy vocal ensemble when I have to work on OTHER THINGS, being told to run the vocal ensemble and teach with no experience and only ten years of training,being discouraged for taking private lessons, hearing her talk down about my private teachers infront of me ... "Rebekahs teacher did this isn't that pathetic?" but she has never talked to them. I mean, I can keep going ...

SHE is the music department lead. What's worse is that she is the one who organises these concerts I've treid to talk to her on an intellectual level, I've tried to present statistics with her, with my findings, ... I dont mean to sound superior or anything but being a teenager in this time I feel like I can undersand my peers differently to how she understands them. Sometimes I quesiton her knowledge because he asked a boy with dyslexia what dyslexia IS, she said she never heard of such a word ... what kind of a music teacher doesnt know about learning disorders.

I've tried and other talented students have tried saying to her "there is talent hold auditions you dont know about it ..." ... "kids like this repertoire, its virtuosic they dont need to have a classical leaning" ... etc. BUT she says she knows the kids better than we do.

Gathering statistics in the school, distributing surveys to hundreds of kids is HARD work and the results dont tie into her ideas ... but she wont listen.

Have you taken your concerns to the school's administration?

I agree, and I would leave words like "stupid," "idiot," etc. out of it. I doubt that this teacher is an idiot, or stupid. You basically have a difference of opinion.



One argument you could use is that consideration should also be given to the perfomers, and what music they like.

Rebekah,
I agree 100% with you, that unless we encourage listening to classical music, kids won't even know it exists and thus have a closed-minded view about it. I taught a music listening session when I taught K-5 general music. The kids *loved* the pieces and had a lot of fun with it.

Having said that however, do you think you're being a bit closed minded about singing and playing other styles? Obviously you already have other opportunities to perform your classical music, so this is not your only outlet. Perhaps when you are dean of the music department, you can decide what curriculum you will be teaching. But she is in charge here, and perhaps it is a challenge for *you* to open *your* mind.

That is how school is. Many times you will learn things that you don't think you need to learn. You may come into a class expecting to learn things that you already know, and be disappointed when you don't get to do those things. However, they are the teacher, and you must respect them in that position not matter how much you disagree. You most likely won't succeed in changing her mind, as you have already petitioned her on the subject. She obviously has no intention of changing things, whether she herself doens't know enough about classical music and may feel threatened by it (or jealous of those who may know more than she), or whether she honestly feels she is doing the right things by trying to encourage kids to participate in a style that they can easily relate to and are comfortable with. Regardless of the reason, you will not change her mind if you continue to petition her. You may, however, galvanize her in her position and even get on her bad side if you persist. A little wisdom in these circumstances go a long way.

I would set aside your own prejudices and opinions for the short time you have to endure this. Be glad you have a music program at all, with opportunities to perform. Remember, classical music is not just about the repertoire, but it is also about the technique. Sing the dickens out of "Green Finch and Linnet Bird" or "Think of Me", play your heart out on a more complex arrangement of a pop tune. Let them wonder how it is you can do such things, and then you can tell them it is due to your classical training.

Not only will this make your short time left in the school much more tolerable, you may just learn something in the process.

As the head of the department, and the teacher, the choice of repertoire is her decision. If you progress in music after school, and perform with other people, you will frequently have to play music that is not your choice. So learning how to do that gracefully is part of your education.

On the other hand, the demeaning talk from her is completely wrong, and very likely illegal. I would get a small tape or digital recorder and record her rantings, and take it to the principal.

She has no business being a teacher if what you say about what she says in class is true.

She sounds like a loose cannon on deck, and is able to get away with speaking like that because no one has reported her.

You are too polite to call her stupid and an idiot. What kind of school are you attending? Where are the parents?

So the school cafeteria should take vegetables off the menu because children won't like them? And the English teacher won't teach Shakespeare because the students don't undertand it? And the math teacher shouldn't teach arithmetics because it's boring and everyone has a caculator?

Are any of the teachers concerned about this part:

keystring, yes, but that is a whole different issue than the one about the pop music.

Rebekah, I think you need to learn how to say now. None of those things are required of you. If you are participating in a performance, then yes, you are expected to help carry things and set up. If the woman asks you to get her keys, or track down a teacher for her, I've done that myself. Sometimes you can't leave the classroom unattended, and so you are asking the student to do you a favor. However, you do not have to go to a print shop, participate in ensemble work that are outside of your class grade or something that you previously agreed to do, teach a class, etc.

You need to speak to the principal directly about this, and now. The talking down part also should be addressed to the principal, but be sure to have specific examples of when these things were said and done. Write them down in a list with as much specifics as you can recall (dates or particular events help). List names of those who witnessed her saying derogatory things about your "pathetic" teachers. Show the principal your list when you meet with them.

From what you're saying, it is highly likely that this teacher dislikes you and/or is jealous of you in some way. But that's neither here nor there. Don't bring up that possibility to the principal. Simply stick to the facts and let them know that you feel you are being treated unfairly and taken advantage of, but that if you don't do these things, you may get a bad grade.

My thoughts exactly. The way school systems operate, student complaints are rarely taken seriously or, worse, elicit a knee-jerk reaction of stubborn resistance. This is not fair, but it is what it is. If your parents, on the other hand, ask to come in for a conference and air the same concerns, you will have a much higher likelihood of getting changes implemented. This is particularly true if you can get a small group of parents of like-minded students.

Oh Good. I didn't have to go find Monica!!!

I'm an older college student who went back to school after a trucking injury in large part due to the encouragement i received on this board. I've had to deal with teachers with boundary issues (and prevailed almost every time) to a point that it's been suggested that I go for a Psychology degree, but I am committed to my Business/Music degree plan. Teachers CAN be some of the most boundary-illiterate people in the world. Some go into teaching because they care, or love to learn, but many others go into it because they have control issues and/or live vicariously through the students and/or exploit their position to get their own needs met. I've found plenty of all at school.


People often "raise" children the way they were raised. Children (and you are a child in this context) have a lot of needs. It's normal. You came into the world with a set of needs (food, clothing shelter) and relied on adults for everything. As you grow, your needs diminish. Now that you are a teen, you are starting to experiment with making adult decisions but you have gotten into a situation with a teacher who is overwhelmed with her OWN unmet needs and who is thereby alternating between being enmeshed with you and squashing the needs of others.

Your descriptions of how she treats you and others are all violations of trust. We trust a teacher not to play favorites just as we trust them not to sanction, invalidate, bully or abuse less favorite students.

Her job (defined as being in a position of leadership) is to care for and advocate for all students equally.

She is assigned to teach you. You didn't approach her out of need. Her responsibility is to RECOGNIZE this responsibility.

When a person who is seeking care, and that care gets muddied, as in the examples you listed above, you are essentially being used to meet her needs, and this is improper because it is IN REVERSE.

Sarcastic, derogatory, insulting and/or disparaging remarks also violate the emotional boundaries of the recipient because they cannot fight back -- they are not equals.

I agree with Monica. You are unfortunately in a position where people will work harder to cover their a** than to solve your problem. Enlisting the help of your PARENTS however will force them to listen.

Complaints in writing never hurt either. This teacher needs some professional help. Perhaps you can do her a favor over the long term and get her pointed in a direction of healing.

So, what it sounds like you're saying is that the issue with not being able to perform classical music is the straw that broke the camel's back? Because none of these totally justifiable complaints is about the music you are allowed to perform.

Things you need to do:

1 - dial back on the "idiot" and "stupid" terms. Your relative age to your teacher has nothing to do with your need to do this. The plain fact is, no matter WHAT the age of you OR your teacher is (even if you were older)...the person doing the 'name calling' is not going to be taken seriously by those you complain to.

2 - decide what you're really upset about. Is it the music, or the treatment? Treatment of you or other students? Make a list of your complaints. Chose the items that your parents/the administration are going to be likely to agree is a problem (most likely, unless you can point out that X and Y and Z school district's students are at an advantage to yours, because their curriculum includes classical music, you won't get anywhere because I'm guessing the administration probably thinks they won't like classical either). Pick your battles. Focus.

3 - engage your parents and meet with the administration to discuss your complaints. But only after you have clearly and in writing made these same complaints to your teacher. (the administration will want to see chain of command followed). Give them specific behaviors you would like to see changed.

4 - Just Say No. Some of this is going to just require you respectfully declining when you teacher asks/tells you to do things. It sounds like you are currently being treated like a teacher's assistant. Frankly, my parents would have not considered this viable grounds for complaint. My mother was a teacher and believed that being treated this way was a compliment and an honor.

DO stand up for yourself, when you have given careful thought to the points where you are being treated poorly. When I was a senior in high school I was an accompanist for the choir. I was planning a career in music ed and so was heavily involved in both band and chorus. At the end of the term, I got a B. I'd never gotten a B in a music class In My Life. I remember when we all got to chorus that day, because he had given Bs to the Entire Class and we were all mad. He excused himself that he gave us all Bs because it was his first semester and he didn't know us all well enough to give us anything else.

What I SHOULD have done when he called me up to the piano to do warm-ups (he didn't play) was say,"I'm sorry, but if the extra effort of accompanying does not get me any extra credit then I will have to resign as an accompanist." I didn't. I knew my parents would have been unsupportive. But I should have done it. That was 29 years ago and I still remember it. So Do stand up for yourself once you decide what you're objecting TO.

On another note, why does the music have to be in school? Why not choose a different elective and pursue private lessons outside of school?

When I taught at a university, I was often annoyed that students would sign up for a class and complain that it wasn't what they wanted. Why did they sign up in the first place? They knew what the course content was going to be, so what did they expect?

For students majoring in piano in college, instruction and participation is traditionally outside of school so engagement in school programs would not weigh heavily on admissions and scholarship opportunities.

However, in my experience (my personal experience is from the dark ages but I work at a university and have several friends among the music students), vocal and band/instrumental students' engagement in their high school music programs does come into consideration for college admissions and scholarships.

Kreisler, you have experience with college faculty, how do you think it would be viewed in a potential voice or band/instrument student came in to audition and said they didn't participate in their HS music program because they didn't like the music the teacher chose or the teacher asked them to run errands?