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To pianogal37,

A good piano teacher knows how to get the most out of a student during a lesson. In fact, I often review concepts at the end of a lesson to ensure they were understood. But I also go at a pace that allows the student to incorporate new ideas. Plus some learning is cyclical. I may begin a concept one week, and know that it will take six weeks for it to stick. Little by little I approach the same point in different ways until it is understood. Even with Mom helping, ideas take a long time to learn in piano.

If you truly believe that a six year old cannot take in all the elements of a lesson, do you feel the same way about your child's math class? Do you sit in on all of your son's school lessons? At what age do you think you can leave him alone?

Also, your son might listen LESS during the lesson if he knows his Mom will pick up the slack. So you might lose the advantage you think you're gaining.

My heartfelt wish is that parents raise independent children. I find a lot of my teenage students need to be coaxed through every little theory lesson because nobody taught them to rely on themselves. Sure they get 95% or some such mark, but wouldn't it be more of a success if they got 75% relying on their own ability to read and study effectively?

So, in sum, I hope you adopt the sink or swim mentality before your son gets too old. I have 20 year old students who get their Moms to call me when they're sick and fully capable of calling themselves.

Piano Dad,

If you as a parent of younger ones would omit a good teacher who has hard and fast rules about parental attendance, aren't you following a hard and fast rule yourself?

Let's say the best teacher in the city wouldn't accept parents sitting in on every lesson, but only occasionally, as is my policy. Aren't you doing your child a disservice by picking somebody else who will indulge you instead of picking the teacher who is best for your son?

Pardon me for taking up pianogal37's issue, but the child is taught on a daily basis in elementary school. Math class occurs every day for roughly an hour. Little quizzes, classwork sheets and small group exercises assure that any teacher worth his or her salt is aware of every student's current issues. Basic problems do not fester for a week until the next formal 'lesson.' If piano lessons occurred on a daily basis at the hands of a trained professional, the independence from some of the parental micromanagement would be assured. The cost, however, would stagger most families. :-)

More on this issue later ...




A fair point, but quite speculative.

Actually, I think the more worrying issue is whether the child is attentive to the teacher or is instead always sneaking a glance at mom or dad to see if they approve. A child cannot easily serve two masters well.




This is what is known as a debater's point. I can match it! There is indeed a chance that a meteorite will crash through my house tonight and kill me. That fact, however, doesn't keep me up at night. Nor does the theoretical possibility of such a heavenly disaster lead me to take any precautions against that risk. To translate this into piano teaching .... yes indeed, there might possibly be God's Gift to Pedagogy out there whose teaching technique would disappear in a puff of ash if a musically inclined parent so much as sat in on one lesson or said one word to their child at home about music. I will forgo the opportunity for my child to work with such a pedagogue if it means I never have to deal with the far more likely situation of a teacher who 'thinks' they are God's gift to teaching when in fact my help would have led to a far better outcome for my child.

Of course, this is all rather moot now. I do NOT sit in on my sixteen year old son's lessons (except at the very end when they're running way overtime!). When I AM in the room, the teacher welcomes me as a participant. My son is NOT intimidated by my presence. We all know who the boss is. It's the Steinway Artist with the undergraduate training at Peabody and the graduate training under Nelita True. She's the boss. But even she is willing to use me as part of the training team. Even she understands that having a parent with a good musical background is a potential opportunity instead of an absolute curse. That's the kind of humility and sensitivity that actually marks a good teacher .... in my opinion. :-)

As a parent I think Gary D has the most practical view on this, basically that it's taken on a case by case basis. I, like PianoDad, would be completely disinclined to accept a piano teacher that, as an absolute rule, did not allow parents in their lessons. I feel confident in saying that our kids would not have progressed nearly as far, as quickly, and with (hopefully) good practice habits without the direct involvement of us (actually mainly my piano playing wife). In this case the kids piano teacher pretty much demands parent participation and she is generally good at involving both the parents and the student.

To bring another example into the mix, our daughter has started taking jazz piano lessons. Her current lessons are heavily theory oriented, beyond what my wife was taught (she realized long ago just how theory week her piano training was when she was growing up). So during our daughters jazz piano lessons, we are basically passive observers, most of what they are doing going over our heads. So when it comes time to practice, our involvement becomes one more of "someone to bounce ideas off of or to listen and give opinions (and yes, I think that because of our direct involvement in her classical training, she has no problems at all soliciting critique from us). So in this case, our involvement is far more passive (my wife even sits in another room during the lesson to read), though the teacher is more than happy to have us sit in if we feel like it (I like to sit in if I take her to her lesson).

But to each teacher their own. I would that think most teachers are savvy enough to understand that having an iron clad rule against parents sitting in on lessons runs the risk of alienating a certain percentage of families that they often bemoan not having enough of (i.e. families that are committed enough to piano that the parents themselves are willing to sacrifice time during lessons and practice and are therefore less likely to treat piano as a second class citizen), with the advantage of course being that they then will also weed out all the negative scenarios.

"That's the kind of humility and sensitivity that actually marks a good teacher . . . . in my opinion."

In my opinion too! Thank you.

Joan

[quote=Candywoman]I may begin a concept one week, and know that it will take six weeks for it to stick.

Candywoman,
Perhaps if the parent was in the room to help the child learn it wouldn't take six weeks.

To respond to your slightly snarky math issue, I do not sit in his math class, nor his extracurricular activities other than piano. I have extensive experience with child development and learning, and I object strongly to your insinuation that my son is not separating and individuating from me at his appropriate developmental level. It is impressive that you can make blanket statements about myself and my son after never having met us. Wow, you really must be almost as amazing as you think you are!

(Not a reply to anyone in particular)

Different philosophies exist, none of us know the people involved, which are two reasons why I've remained silent. But generally only one view is being expressed when there are at least two. It is suggested that unless a child is pushed, she will lack self-discipline and not be able to face the difficulties in adulthood. Analogies are made to school attendance and eating vegetables. I did not force my kids to eat their veggies, and they only attended school once they chose to do so, which was around gr. 9. Whether by good fortune (read "blessing"), despite their upbringing, or because of it (an hypothesis), there are two vegetable-eating health conscious responsible young adults in this world. None of these dread consequences happened.

The poster has listened to her daughter, kept a promise, and earned trust. That's a big thing, especially when entering the adolescent years.

Candywoman has expressed belief in the student. That's the part that caught my eye. Whether or not a parent is in the room is a different issue. This would have to go with teaching style and other things. I was in the room: it just ended up being that way.

Re: math. In the homeschooling route there is individualized instruction, which in some ways resemble private lessons. Looking back, I did not teach each day. Once a lesson was taught it needed to be internalized through exercises. Even at the age of 5 and 6 the youngsters had the habit of completing their "3 R's" and organizing their time. Learning is active, ideally self-directed and it is a process. The school system is an institution, it is mass education, and many of the devices used there exist to compensate for that. Testing is one such device, quite a flawed one.

The final decision rests on the parent who has her own philosophies, and depends on the child and possible teachers. While I have my own ideas, I would not want to push them on anyone - it's one of several paths. Just want to point out that more than one theory might exist.

Daily lessons would also shut down what I think is the most important thing learned: how to study independently.

This happens, finally, in college, officially. This is not to say that it can't be learned ealier, but usually in school kids not only that what they don't get today can be picked up tomorrow, they also learn that passing tests is the goal, no learning.

Piano lessons are often the first time children learn that cramming does not work. Period. And the reviewing what was supposedly learned the day of the last lesson will not be there, in the mind, if practice is delayed until just before the next lessons.

I actually tell parents of young kids: "I am teaching your child, now, to be responsible in a way that normally is reserved for much later in life. If s/he learns this process, it will be a giant advantage in school."

(And it is.)

Now, to expect a 5 or 6 year-old to understand how to work, how to study, how to listen, how to process, with no help from another adult (parent) is something that I don't think works very well. For those parents who DO expect me to do it, alone, who won't take the time to be in lessons and learn what we are doing, the progess is horrendously slow.

So the parent should no longer be in a lesson when there is zero advantage to the parent being there. It's that simple.

Ah, this is so true. I teach high school math, and it is so difficult to convince students that maybe the goal isn't to pass tests. My goals for students (and I really haven't figured out to be successful imparting this) are to learn how to learn, to think critically and logically, to assess their understanding, and create a plan for addressing their difficulties. I would dearly love to create a course in how to learn, and "oh by the way, you'll also be getting credit for grade 12 math."

This post is slightly off topic from piano teaching, but I suspect that at least one thing--learning to assess your understanding of a piece of music--is an essential skill for piano players.

This from a former tuba player to a euphonium player

To quote PianoDad: "Basic problems do not fester for a week until the next formal 'lesson'" What problems? If you do a thorough teaching job, the point of practicing beginner melodies for a six year old is to gain facility and awareness of the score. I haven't noticed any problems that festered.

To quote pianogal37: "Perhaps if the parent was in the room to help the child learn it wouldn't take six weeks." It might take seven weeks!!ha ha. But the point here is that the experience of taking piano lessons isn't just about achieving the things that the teacher pointed out. A student needs to experiment with the piano on his own terms, without Mom steering him about. I know the sort of parent that does this thinks they are gaining advantages. But it is the child who needs to fit piano into his general experiences and become his or her own best teacher.

Have you considered calling the first piano teacher and asking her opinion of how things went with your son? She may be able to point out his merits and demerits and suggest your next move. I think a lack of communication is at the root of your problem with the first teacher. Is it possible your son picked up on your discomfort at not being in the lessons?

To respond to Candywoman, I have no concerns regarding how my son is doing at piano now that I am teaching him. He enjoys it much more, and is making excellent progress in both theory and practical.

Candywoman,

You are free to teach using whatever methods you choose. You are also free to think that every parent who works with their child is a caricature of the 'helicopter parent' that the contemporary popular media so warns us about.

Reasonable parents understand the need to allow children to grow independently. But as keystring tells us, there are many ways to help children develop into healthy and independent adults. And independence is only one virtue. Knowledge and skill acquisition is another.

Lastly, families can walk and chew gum at the same time. A parent can sit in on some lessons or assist at some percentage of the student's home practice time without turning the child into a helpless and indecisive appendage. If you raise 'independence' to the chief and only virtue you can sometimes wind up with a self-indulgent failure who doesn't know what achievement really is. Yes, I know that this is a caricature as well, but it is just as plausible as the failed helicopter child of the pop psychologists on morning TV these days.

I happen to value achievement. (Yes, I'm sure you do too). I also think that rapid achievement is an ally to developing true independence. I'm willing to grant that there may be many paths to that virtue. I'm not willing to accept that the only way to that virtue is for parents who happen to have useful skills to become furniture while their children struggle with complete independence.

As bitWrangler notes, Gary has posted very sensible and practical thoughts:

Sorry I'm a little late to the discussion. I have had families like this in the past. One that I can think of would question a lot of what I taught her daughter. I let the mom know that it undermined me as an authority and prevented the daughter from learning at all, resulting in her wasting her money. If she was paying me to be the teacher, then she has to let me be the teacher.

I think you need to have a good one-on-one with the mom (preferably with no kids present) to let her know this. Don't even mention the pointing out of mistakes specifically, because I hardly think that skipping a blank page is worthy of even mentioning. Really what she is doing is trying to put you down, and looking for anything she can find to do it. Let her know either she trusts in you and your judgment, or she should find another teacher that better suits her needs.

Glen R -

From a math teacher to a math teacher -

Amen!

Cathy

Hey, another math teacher! Nice to hear another one who agrees with me!

In response to the idea of parental observation (and I mean observation, not intrusion), I think it depends on the family dynamic. In the past I have had parents that desire to sit in on lessons due to the comfort level of the child. I have allowed this and there were no problems.

However, one boy who was particularly insecure (his mother is a principal at the middle school) insisted that mom was there all the time. I let this go for a while since I wanted him to be comfortable. However, after a while I felt that he needed to learn to be a bit more independent. This boy is in 3rd grade, by the way. So I suggested to mom that she stay for a bit and then go shopping, or leave for a few minutes during the lesson. Eventually he became more comfortable and less insecure in himself. I don't think mom was a helicopter, but I do think that there was a bit too much dependence on her in general with regards to playing piano. He needed to learn some self-reliance, that he could do it himself, even if he made mistakes. He's gotten much better and is less nervous during lessons, although if I don't see him in a while the nerves come back. It's a process, but it has been only done with the cooperation of the mother, both of us being on the same side. Without that, no learning will happen with the child.