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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Nikalette #1242387 08/03/09 03:25 AM
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i'm listening to them right now--- really beautiful playing!


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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
dave solazzo #1242388 08/03/09 03:26 AM
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jazzwee

Rhythmically, I don't think Bill Evan's style and Brad Mehldau is in direct contrast against each other. They both liked to play over the barline, polyrhyms, and do different things to obscure where 1 is.. They also like to play a simple melodic phrase and play variations of it, but placing them in different parts of the beat. You can hear Bill Evans do that on his version of "autumn leaves" from the "explorations album"

The difference is that Brad is much more aggressive in his approach and more modern, and the 1 is much more obscure. You don't here the kind of triplet polyrhythm in Bill Evan's solos. And Brad LH is much more independent and rhythmic.

It's really amazing how much control he has over multiple voices while he is improvising... that's really hard both technially and aurally. I really think he opened up alot of new door for jazz piano.. you can hear Aaron parks and so many others guys imitating Brad's style.. the problem is that all the stuff he is doing is extremely difficult

Last edited by etcetra; 08/03/09 03:28 AM.
Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
dave solazzo #1242390 08/03/09 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by dave solazzo
i'm listening to them right now--- really beautiful playing!



He can play with both hands now, and performs concerts regularly, but he still has a tremendous love for the left-handed repertoire.

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Nikalette #1242472 08/03/09 09:18 AM
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Hi Gang,

I am planning a big day here with my Baerman book. I want to share with you another exercise I just recorded in the Bill Evans style. As an experiment, I recorded it first at the maximum tempo that I can handle, then, at a slower speed.

This piece has the same chord progression as the sample solo I posted a few days ago. According to Baerman, the changes are "loosely based on the standard tune "I'll Remember April".

http://www.box.net/shared/9l0fi19bob

Learning to swing is my goal here.

Thanks for listening and feedback always appreciated.

Barb


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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb #1242494 08/03/09 10:06 AM
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etcetera, like you I listen to Evans a lot. I think that new players have taken what he started and do something different. Evans isn't big on 5/4 for example. Maybe you can point out a video of him doing polyrhythm. He doesn't do anything really too far out. Usually it's 6/4 against 4/4 stuff I think.

I haven't heard Evans offset the the time on LH vs. RH or against a rhythm section like Mehldau. Or playing a completely different meter on LH vs. RH. I think Mehldau sounds completely different.

Look at this kind of hand independence. Mehldau is insane!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph48xoGjl1c&feature=related

In any case, in the last few posts I was contrasting the swing styles specifically of Bill against. Mehldau. Obviously Mehldau can play like Evans, but I haven't heard anyone approach swing like Mehldau. It's probably not for everyone


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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee #1242497 08/03/09 10:10 AM
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Nikalette, please feel free to ignore the advanced swing discussion. Some of this has been going on for years. smile So don't feel like you have to understand the nuances at this point. But it is informative in that it tells you there's much to listen to. I've captured only a small percentage in these lessons. As you listen more to jazz, more of this will be apparent to your hearing. It takes awhile though and you have to listen a lot. Typically, a beginning jazz student can't even think of the 16th notes much more than just a quick blur. It takes time to hear the individual notes.

So don't worry about levels. We'll answer you from the very basic to the most complex (that we can handle).


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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
knotty #1242537 08/03/09 11:29 AM
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Thanks guys, for the feedback. I think I've probably got as much out of that tune as I'm going to. And I do take on board what you're saying about the bass line and the swing, jazzwee. Knotty, you're right - technically I can do more complex than this. As far as ear-training goes, trust me, this is the right level. Listening to that, playing out on the piano, was about as much as I can manage, and I learned from doing it.

Originally Posted by knotty

I'd be curious to hear those challenging tunes from the book. In particular, I'd like to see if they are the right kind of challenging. if you see what I mean.


Well, I like a good challenge! smile I've been wondering what to do, and I don't think those ballads at the end will really cut it. What do you reckon, Barb, if I manage to pull p 156 off? (btw, nice recording. I'll leave it to others more knowledgeable to comment).

Nikalette - Some of the advanced discussions go over me head. I concentrate on this stuff I understand because I figure it applies to my level. smile

Right, time to dust off the old Hanon!

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
ten left thumbs #1242548 08/03/09 11:36 AM
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Hey TLT, If you are ready to tackle that Charlie Parker tune on page 156, go for it. That will surely liven things up here laugh


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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb #1242574 08/03/09 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Swingin' Barb
Learning to swing is my goal here.

Thanks for listening and feedback always appreciated.

Barb


Hi Barb, I listened to it several times and that's a good exercise. I know I'm only listening to a small snippet so it's hard the catch the fine points here. I would shoot for a little less swing on the eighths. At this speed (the fast version) Evans would not swing that hard and he's a hard swinger. Sometimes I wish you were right next to me as it is so easy to show this in person than to describe in words...

But next time I listen, I will see if you reduced the 2:1 to some lower ratio. I will let you know if you've succeeded smile




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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee #1242584 08/03/09 12:36 PM
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TLT, don't worry about Hanon. I didn't do much of it. Just a little. I did some Czerny with a classical teacher but it was for very specific practice. I think "Donna Lee" is more of a stretch than Hanon. Among all of us here, perhaps only Dave can handle Donna Lee with ease (once Dave learns the head). I'm trying to think of some tune that was technically more difficult and I can't think of any right now. Some tunes are difficult to solo over but Donna Lee is hard just to play the melody at a fast tempo. It's not so bad slow as Barb has already learned it a long time ago. I think I learned it my 1st year of Jazz and I didn't have your technique as a starting point.

But regular scale practice...there's no getting around that. In addition to normal major scales, you should be prepared to do a diminished scale run up and down very quickly. All three. I think it is easier to swing once you get your scale speed up. I think evenness is needed to swing well, which includes perfect time. What's your speed limit on scales using a metronome? This is not a short term thing though. It's just regular practice. (applies to you too Barb :)).









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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee #1242590 08/03/09 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Sometimes I wish you were right next to me as it is so easy to show this in person than to describe in words...

Thank you, Jazzwee. It was not a snippet, but the entire printed exercise. That is what I like about the Baerman book -- things are short.

I will most definitely be working on that swing ratio.

Plus, I will be on the next flight out to So. California. Pick me up at the airport grin





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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee #1242612 08/03/09 01:09 PM
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Confession time!

I don't know Donna Lee. I've heard it a couple of times, but it's been so fast I can't grasp onto anything. I have the sheet music for it, from 7notemode's site.

I've got out of the habit of playing scales. Funny that! laugh I did know them once, and they come back to me when I call them. But I should practice them again.

I don't actually possess a metronome. I have an amp, with metronome setting. It has a knob on the top with 3 markings: 30, 120 and 240. I generally play with it somewhere between 30 and 120, and twiddle till I get it right.

I don't know what diminished scales are.

Financially, things are pretty tight, and my piano playing is simply not a family priority, so a whole bunch of things (like a metronome, the real book, the Levine book, the Snidero book, BIAB) are just having to wait. Unfortunately, trans-Atlantic plane tickets also come into this category. wink

This might be a good time to let everyone know where the quote in my signature comes from (as nobody has asked, that either means you know, or you don't know). This clip made a great impression on the younger me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgfZVNv6w2E

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
ten left thumbs #1242641 08/03/09 01:42 PM
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TLT, that's funny! So Zoot is your jazz influence? smile

Fortunately, you can survive with 120bpm. It's a pretty good metronome setting actually for a little slower swing. Great for beginning stages. There are plenty of on-line metronomes too if the computer is nearby.





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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee #1242665 08/03/09 02:24 PM
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TLT - I never asked about the quote in your signature line -- I figured you made it up.

I've decided that my new jazz idol is Zoot! Bill Evans has been replaced by a blue haired muppet. 3hearts



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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb #1242719 08/03/09 03:53 PM
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Zoot had good time. The note is perfectly placed! smile

I've seen online metronomes, but the computer is in another room. Now, I could set up my laptop, but life is too short somehow. I just don't feel the need to know exactly what speed I'm playing.

Now, I've just read what Wikipedia has to say on the subject of diminished scales.

I'll quote:

There are two types of symmetric diminished scales. These scales are sometimes called octatonic scales because they utilize eight tones. They are based on a series of alternating half steps and whole steps. One type starts with a half-step (H-W-H-W-H-W-H-W), and one starts with a whole step (W-H-W-H-W-H-W-H).

Because of the repetition of the interval pattern after only two notes, each note in the scale can be a root in another symmetric diminished scale. For example, the C symmetric diminished scale of the half-step-first type, is composed with the same notes as the half-step-first type Eâ™­ scale, and the whole-step-first type Dâ™­ scale:

C symmetric diminished: C D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C

E♭ symmetric diminished: E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C D♭ E♭

D♭ symmetric diminished: D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C D♭

All three are composed with the same group of notes: C D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭ C D♭ E♭ E F♯ G A B♭

In fact, all symmetric diminished scales are composed with only three groups of notes.

Endquote.

Which sounds reasonable, except it doesn't tell me what the assymetric type is. Maybe I shouldn't ask. I'll just be grateful that there aren't half-diminished scales too. wink

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
ten left thumbs #1242732 08/03/09 04:11 PM
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Sorry to disappoint, but of course there are half diminished scales. It's called the Diminished-Whole Tone scale. smile

Which leads me to remember the Whole Tone scale. Although I don't see why this has to be specifically practiced as a scale. It's just half all black notes and half all white notes (and vice versa).

In Jazz we are concerned about Half-Whole Diminished, and Whole-Half Diminished. But the scales are the same they are just different starting points so technically there is nothing different to practice.

We're only talking about practice here. Application wise, this is a big topic in itself so that's for much later. But no need to wait on the practice.


ALL diminished scales are symmetric.

Last edited by jazzwee; 08/03/09 04:13 PM.

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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee #1242771 08/03/09 05:04 PM
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I knew I shouldn't have asked. Half-whole and whole-half I can understand. Will have a go tomorrow.

Whole-tone we did in school. But I never really saw the point in it.

Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
ten left thumbs #1242818 08/03/09 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

Whole-tone we did in school. But I never really saw the point in it.


grin Someday you will (if you haven't given up by then!)

As a clue, it's good for Dom7#5 chords. But the only point to practicing these scales is because the diminished scales have completely different shapes and ones that you will encounter in improvisation. If you can do fast diminished runs while maintaining a legato sound, you'll be way ahead, technically speaking. It's harder than a regular major scale.

Diminished scales BTW are played only with fingers 1,2,3.

I'm not telling you to practice scales so you can do runs during improvisation. That is not cool. This is just a technical exercise.





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Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee #1242836 08/03/09 06:59 PM
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while you're at it, you might want to learn your minor scales. Those minor ii v I do come up once in a while.


Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
knotty #1242862 08/03/09 07:37 PM
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Minor scales come up a lot! In fact it's in AL. But the major scale and minor scales are the same though. So technique/fingering wise it's the same thing. Mentally though, you're right. One needs to be able to instantly identify a relative minor.


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