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Ebony, I don't know what your personal beef with me is -- but my question is just as valid. I think we are all serious teachers in our own right -- we wouldn't be sitting here on a forum with other teachers debating the point and the attributes of dedication and seriousness if we weren't. It's all semantics "serious vs. semi-serious vs. not-serious"
My calling in life and goal as a teacher and a writer is to spread the joy of music to my students and give them a skill that they can enjoy for a lifetime. How do you figure that it's semantics? That was a good question posted by AZN with many good points brought up by others. Just because someone can play, does NOT mean they can, or should teach. Just because you want to "spread the joy of music" doesn't make you qualified to teach. I'm not saying you personally are not qualified to teach.
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I actually asked my instructor to add a few more performances throughout the year so I can get more performance experience. I think it is important for every piano student to share their playing and build up their performance management. Has he done this for you? Most, if not all, nursing homes, hospitals, assisted living facilities amongst others, love for people to come in and play. You can do this on your own without other students or your teacher. Just pop in and start playing, you will have a crowd in no time! If you're too nervous to go alone, grab someone to go with you and start with some duets 
It is better to be kind than to be right.
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Ebony,I don't know what your personal beef with me is -- but my question is just as valid. No beef. Sorry, I did not see a question in your post. Just so you wouldn't think it was personal, I said: I'm not saying you personally are not qualified to teach. I think we are all serious teachers in our own right
That is what we are discussing.
It is better to be kind than to be right.
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O.K. so if I am understanding the whole point of this thread, it's to define "serious piano teacher" and how taking lessons from such a teacher is better than taking lessons from someone who is "not serious". We each are going to have our own opinions here and I really hope we can continue this thread without a bunch of posturing and insults because it's a really good thread IMO. I think John summed it up quite well in an earlier post, about how we as teachers can and need to improve ourselves to offer the very best we can to our students. We need to offer them various opportunities to play and/or compete. I don't understand the arguments that have followed  Don't you think it's a matter of standards in our studios? A list of expectations and goals from a teacher who is qualified to teach? As John also said in another thread, there is no reason these days to not have a good fit for student and teacher.
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I actually asked my instructor to add a few more performances throughout the year so I can get more performance experience. I think it is important for every piano student to share their playing and build up their performance management. Has he done this for you? Most, if not all, nursing homes, hospitals, assisted living facilities amongst others, love for people to come in and play. You can do this on your own without other students or your teacher. Just pop in and start playing, you will have a crowd in no time! If you're too nervous to go alone, grab someone to go with you and start with some duets Great ideas.
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I understand the importance of getting used to playing before others as early as a child can, especially if the child has talent and may go far, but as a teacher I will NEVER force anyone to do this. I don't want any student of mine vomiting before lessons, etc. like I did. To "encourage" a student is one thing, to "slightly pressure" a student who is on the fence is one thing, but to say "do it or I won't teach you anymore" I think is unreasonable. That's what my teacher told me and she was definitely a "serious" teacher!
It must take extra vigilance on your part to teach piano and offer recitals without unconsciously passing on to students that performing is traumatic and to be feared. My mother-in-law is scared to death of water and can't swim. She managed to pass that fear on to my husband, just by him seeing how nervous she was at the pool or lake. His brother, who went to a boarding school and was taught to swim there, never picked up that fear. (my husband did overcome it to a great extent after years of effort but I, who never had a fear of water even as a tiny child, have a hard time grasping how difficult it must be). I had a couple of mediocre piano teachers as a child. The first retired before I ever got to the point of playing in a recital, but the second had issues with memorization herself. She always told us that "she wouldn't make us memorize" and that we could have the music on the piano "if we wanted to". So of course we all did. Just from her comments I though memorization must be some big mystical thing and that performing without music was "scary." I never really learned to memorize until I was in my mid-40's, despite moving on to better teachers (none of which knew how to teach memorization, unfortunately). More in line with the original intent of this thread...anyone who spends any time in the Adult Beginners' forum know that a whole lot of adult amateurs have some pretty high goals and "dream pieces". In my not-so-humble opinion, people who want to reach a high standard of playing are much better served by "serious teachers". My definition of a serious teacher is someone with high standards and experience in helping multiple students to reach advanced levels of playing. This is about pianistic and pedagogical skills and experience...not about how "nice" they are or whether they "push" their students. A "serious" student would want a teacher who can help them attain their goals. Whatever those goals are. You can be a crappy teacher and a poor pianist and still be demanding and unpleasant. 
Adult Amateur Pianist
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Of the thousands upon thousands of children who've played their recitals at our facility, we've only seen a tiny fraction who were past middle-school age. The kids hit eighth grade, and it's like a spigot being turned off.
I've taught adults exclusively for many years, and those who studied piano in their youth also report discontinuing lessons between ages 11 and 13.
Any comments on this phenomenon?
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Ya. I've got a comment. The kids who quit probably never wanted to learn piano in the first place. They reach adolescence and other "more important things" come to the fore.
Or, they just lose interest. It happens. I played the saxophone at a very early age. Was even in the school orchestra as first chair. But, I lost interest in the sax when I found the guitar.
Things change.
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Of the thousands upon thousands of children who've played their recitals at our facility, we've only seen a tiny fraction who were past middle-school age. The kids hit eighth grade, and it's like a spigot being turned off.
I've taught adults exclusively for many years, and those who studied piano in their youth also report discontinuing lessons between ages 11 and 13.
Any comments on this phenomenon? You could start a new thread with this I think eweiss is right on. By that age, most of them are spread so thin that piano is one of the first things to go. Not always, but especially with the boys. Like she said, they also frequently find they like other things more. They don't necessarily leave music, just move from piano to something else.
It is better to be kind than to be right.
Professional private piano teacher since 1994.
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Ken, I think we all have these students. I know that as they grow and mature, their interests are going to expand. Perhaps 1 in 5 will continue beyond 8th grade. Just an overall estimate on my part.
Many, as I see signs of wavering interest, I begin to talk with them about other musical activities and opportunities. Quite a few of my students have expanded into either band instruments or string programs. That's great. They're still involved in music, and they don't have a negative feeling about piano. And hopefully, they will end up with a piano some day and introduce their children to music via the piano.
A great many of these students will go on and enter the professions and become supporters of community arts programs. We need them! And perhaps some experience later, in college perhaps, will rekindle a dying ember of interest in piano, and they will become great devotees of the instrument.
All of this is the reason we should, as teachers, have a comprehensive curriculum which will get students to a real level of competency before they finish 8th grade. A level where they can continue to play on their own for their own enjoyment, without the constant feel of struggle.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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Ya. I've got a comment. The kids who quit probably never wanted to learn piano in the first place. They reach adolescence and other "more important things" come to the fore.
Or, they just lose interest. It happens. I played the saxophone at a very early age. Was even in the school orchestra as first chair. But, I lost interest in the sax when I found the guitar.
Things change. I think a lot of times at this age they want to play music that they hear on the radio and let's face it a lot of <dare I say "serious"> teachers either won't allow it or aren't flexible/knowledgable enough to take them down that road. In most cases it's the lack of repertoire that they find interesting that leads kids this age towards quitting. I think as well that the teacher-student connection at this age is important. In my experience if they regard you as "just another nagging" entity in their life they are more likely to pull away from you (much like most teenagers do with their own parents). However if you make the effort to stay involved and interested in what's going on in their lives (especially outside of piano) and stay committed to customizing their lesson experience so it is enjoyable they will be motivated and committed. ~Jennifer Eklund
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DL33: "Why learn if you don't play in public?"
Argh. This is something I've been fighting with a bit since seriously considering getting back into music and piano.
I want to. No other reason. That's possibly the best thing about going back into it as an adult myself is that I don't have a chorus of adults asking me to justify every little damn thing anymore. "Because I just want to" is all anyone else needs to know. I want to sit in front of the thing and work out stuff I've heard. I want to have it there to mess around on when I hear a new opera. I want to see what sorts of ways you can mimic the effect of a messa di voce on a piano. I just want to.
I feel like such a curmudgeon anymore about this. I can go as fast or as slow as I want, in any direction I want, and I don't ever have to listen to someone demand a justification for it. I don't have to listen to anyone trying to tell me about how this will Impact The Rest Of My Life Forever if I perform, don't perform, learn one way or one composer over another, and play at the one big recital, plus overcome my own childhood shyness at the same time. That's rather a lot of stuff to dump on small shoulders, before a kid even knows who they are yet.
Strangely, it reminds me a bit of some of the needling I get over something far more trivial: my hair. I've got it very, very long. I just like it. And if I wear it down (which I nearly never do since it's too long to leave down easily and I like putting it up), I can guarantee you someone will inform me that There's No Point To Having It if I don't wear it down -- meaning, there's no point to my having something THEY like if THEY can't enjoy it.
Like heck. I like it. I'm the point.
Studying music can turn everyone around you into a back-seat driver in your life, informing you in a million contradictory ways of what it means, what they want out of it, where you should go, what you should play, and when.
I wonder what sort of statistics there are on kids that get back to it as adults. And which category I'd be in at this point: the kids that didn't stick with it, or the kids that did?
And to you teachers: don't forget that many of your young students who disappeared when they turned 15 or whatever may be on something like this board in 30 or 40 years saying, "I want to get back to music." Sometimes with kids, it's like planting a tree from a seed. You may not live to see it grow, but 50 years later, someone else may be basking in the shade. Life isn't linear.
Last edited by J Cortese; 07/28/09 06:31 PM.
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I agree with trillingadventurer and Jennifer. I do not do recitals for my students. They have the opportunity to participate in NYSSMA Festivals each year, if they and their parents are on board, and most achieve the highest scores from Level One through Six. If they want to perform for their schools, I am willing to prepare them for that.
I find that children now are so busy with their academics, sports, and social activities, that to add another item to their list would do more harm than good. My job as a "serious" piano teacher is to give them the knowledge and skills to make them the best player they can be as trillingadventurer listed so well. They can use that ability as they are comfortable doing either to perform in public, for their friends & family, or for themselves.
Joan
Joan Edward
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EDWARDIAN45@hotmail.com
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J. Cortese -  Great post. Cathy
Cathy ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/5540.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/full/7820.png) Perhaps "more music" is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
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DL33: "Why learn if you don't play in public?"
Argh. This is something I've been fighting with a bit since seriously considering getting back into music and piano.
I want to. No other reason. That's possibly the best thing about going back into it as an adult myself is that I don't have a chorus of adults asking me to justify every little damn thing anymore. "Because I just want to" is all anyone else needs to know. I want to sit in front of the thing and work out stuff I've heard. I want to have it there to mess around on when I hear a new opera. I want to see what sorts of ways you can mimic the effect of a messa di voce on a piano. I just want to.
I feel like such a curmudgeon anymore about this. I can go as fast or as slow as I want, in any direction I want, and I don't ever have to listen to someone demand a justification for it. I don't have to listen to anyone trying to tell me about how this will Impact The Rest Of My Life Forever if I perform, don't perform, learn one way or one composer over another, and play at the one big recital, plus overcome my own childhood shyness at the same time. That's rather a lot of stuff to dump on small shoulders, before a kid even knows who they are yet.
Strangely, it reminds me a bit of some of the needling I get over something far more trivial: my hair. I've got it very, very long. I just like it. And if I wear it down (which I nearly never do since it's too long to leave down easily and I like putting it up), I can guarantee you someone will inform me that There's No Point To Having It if I don't wear it down -- meaning, there's no point to my having something THEY like if THEY can't enjoy it.
Like heck. I like it. I'm the point.
Studying music can turn everyone around you into a back-seat driver in your life, informing you in a million contradictory ways of what it means, what they want out of it, where you should go, what you should play, and when.
I wonder what sort of statistics there are on kids that get back to it as adults. And which category I'd be in at this point: the kids that didn't stick with it, or the kids that did?
And to you teachers: don't forget that many of your young students who disappeared when they turned 15 or whatever may be on something like this board in 30 or 40 years saying, "I want to get back to music." Sometimes with kids, it's like planting a tree from a seed. You may not live to see it grow, but 50 years later, someone else may be basking in the shade. Life isn't linear.  For the record, I do have yearly recitals that are entirely optional. Most of my students participate and get really motivated after seeing their peers play -- although a lot of them tell me that dessert afterwards is the highlight of the afternoon! 
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It might be a good thing for you to supplement the yearly recital (assuming you don't already) with small work-groups among students of similar ability. They all come with a piece they're working on, or you give them the same piece and let them all come back and compare how they are doing together and make suggestions for one another. Some kids might benefit more from it than others, but an occasional work-group approach might be a nice way to supplement one-student-one-teacher-plus-recital-at-end-of-year.
In a way, I think I've made some sort of shift in my own mentality toward being a Real Player, however you guys might define Serious Teacher. I think they work well together in some ways and are at loggerheads in others. Speaking as an ex-student, it concerns me that Serious Teacher can be interpreted as "I expect my students to make the piano the single overarching motivating force for their lives." That's a lot to ask of anyone, especially a youngster who has no clue WTH they want to do for a living or even who they really are.
As a Real Player, I think I'm making a mental shift to taking ownership of my ideas on music. Effectively, the next time I sit in front of a keyboard, I'm in charge. Period. Knowing me, I'll probably race ahead fairly quickly, because dropping a brick on the accelerator is the first thing I do when left to my own devices on something I love. But even if I find a teacher, that teacher had better be prepared to support me as the captain of that piano, not just as a skilled helmsman to steer the thing where they think it should go.
I'll take input of course, or else I wouldn't be retaining a teacher. But where their idea of themselves as a Serious Teacher conflicts with my idea of me as a Real Player, my idea will take precedence unless they can convince me otherwise.
And all of this back-and-forth is just not the sort of stuff that a kid is going to think about or even feel qualified to bring up to an adult. Taking ownership of oneself as a musician is a huge part of feeling comfortable performing or making it a career choice and can only really be done by an adult, yet music is something that generally requires that one start young. I guess that's why teaching kids is such hard work ...
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If they regard you as "just another nagging" entity in their life they are more likely to pull away from you (much like most teenagers do with their own parents). Now, why would any teacher become a nag? Especially with regards to high school students. If they're looking for me to nag them into doing the obvious, then they've come to the wrong place.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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DL33: "Why learn if you don't play in public?"
Argh. This is something I've been fighting with a bit since seriously considering getting back into music and piano.
"Because I just want to" is all anyone else needs to know. I want to sit in front of the thing and work out stuff I've heard. I want to have it there to mess around on when I hear a new opera. I want to see what sorts of ways you can mimic the effect of a messa di voce on a piano. I just want to. I love your whole post, but this part in particular. As a teacher, I believe that it IS my job to find this out before we begin and help you to get to where you want to be. I will not EVER force something on a student that they are not in the least bit interested in. I am not saying that I won't expose them to and offer them new things. That's entirely different. If you don't want to play for other people, that is 100% your decision. No one has the right to tell you that you *have* to play for other people in order to get enjoyment from it, or be successful at it. There are a few of us, but not as many that like to perform. I am not a performer either. I absolutely love to play. By myself. Alone. There is no way that anyone will ever convince me that I will love it more if I "play for other people". I love it now. Why do I need to change it if I already love it?? I hope you have a teacher that will teach you and help you get to where you want to be.
It is better to be kind than to be right.
Professional private piano teacher since 1994.
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Wow! What a great thread!
Since my post a couple minutes ago so many chimed in.
Thank you DL33. When I first began teaching I was asked about recitals - still am in fact. But so many children
would be terrified, I feel it would dissuade many from taking lessons. As a child I was also painfully shy, and to face a recital would have terrified me. I would have never continued for eight years of lessons. And BTW, I got over my shyness in my own way, in my own time and perform - acting that is - all the time.
You sound like a great teacher DL33. We all have our own paths. And our own guides along the way.
Joan Edward
Private piano teacher, 20+ years
EDWARDIAN45@hotmail.com
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One of the perks of my job is listening in on more than 3000 student's recital performances each year. The recitals with the most enthusiastic smiling students and parents, shouting, and vigorous applause often share a couple of things in common: An eclectic mix of music in many styles, The teacher might accompany the students playing simpler pieces on a second piano, The teacher or a guest artist plays something of a bravura or show-stopping nature, An atmosphere where the student's accomplishments are being celebrated (no sense of hierarchy or competition) Really good food afterward!
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