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#1235765 - 07/23/09 06:10 AM tactical piano awareness  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2
pianostoolie Offline
Junior Member
pianostoolie  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2
Glendale RI
Hi, my name is Mark I'm 49 years of age who always played by ear and now learning to read. My question is, playing, say right hand two octaves C-C-C. Is it better to use the octave span of my hand as a guide feel, or visualize the octave span and do it on the fly. I've tried it both ways and the feel works 100% but puts a limitation on speed and visually on the fly maybe 65% accuracy. I do have a teacher she's 85 yrs. of age. I don't know how other teachers are but she never really has pat answers as to what she's developed as to the system she uses. Like walking I guess, after a while it just and it's hard how one does it. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated !

Thanks,
Mark (Glendale RI 401-710-7966)







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#1235775 - 07/23/09 06:55 AM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: pianostoolie]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,179
Ebony and Ivory Offline
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Ebony and Ivory  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,179
Minnesota
Hi Mark and welcome to PW!!

I'm not exactly sure what your question is...but I think you're asking about fingering...? I'll have to go look up "fly" in my music dictionary, too technical. lol.

C to C to C I teach RH 1(thumb), RH 3, RH 5 (pinky)
If you're going more than 2 octaves, it would be C 1, C 3, C 1, C 3 until the last one, which would be a 5 again.

Helpful? I hope so wink


It is better to be kind than to be right.

Professional private piano teacher since 1994.
#1235863 - 07/23/09 10:08 AM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Ebony and Ivory]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,534
Gyro Offline
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Gyro  Offline
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There are a number of ways this could be done. Say
you want to play middle C and then the next two higher
C's as rapidly as possible in succession.

One way might be to use finger 1 on middle C, 5 on
the second, then quickly replace 5 with 1 and play the
third with 5. This is secure, because you have the
octave span of your hand to judge the distance, but
substituting the fingers takes time.

Another way might be to use 1 on middle C, 5 on the
second, and then hop wholesale with the hand and
play the third with, say, 4. Judging the hop by
feel. The fact that the third C is to the left of
a black key can help, because you can use
that black key as a sort of "backstop" that when
you hit it you know where the third C is. This
is fast, but less secure, but with practice you
can hit it every time.

Or you might use 1 1 1, or 1 5 5, judging the distance
by feel. And so forth.

Blind pianists do this kind of playing with no problem.

#1235952 - 07/23/09 12:20 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Gyro]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member
John v.d.Brook  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
Olympia, Washington, USA
When I read this topic, I thought it was going to discuss assault pianos! laugh


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
#1235963 - 07/23/09 12:43 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: John v.d.Brook]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
It all depends on context - speed, tone, and what comes before and after.

If all I had to play was C-C-C, I'd use 1-5-3

(Yes, 1-5-3, sorta like Harpo Marx.)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#1236049 - 07/23/09 02:59 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Kreisler]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 192
Susan K. Offline
Full Member
Susan K.  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 192
Central California
Kreisler - Why would you play 1-5-3? Is that to get you into position for what comes after? It feels very good for me to do that. I'm just very curious, because I'm starting to do jumps...

#1236058 - 07/23/09 03:11 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Kreisler]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
Gary D. Online content
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
South Florida
Originally Posted by Kreisler
It all depends on context - speed, tone, and what comes before and after.

If all I had to play was C-C-C, I'd use 1-5-3

(Yes, 1-5-3, sorta like Harpo Marx.)

Also: 2 1 5, and if you return back again, it becomes obvious why. But context is everything, and we don't have any.


Piano Teacher
#1236313 - 07/24/09 01:05 AM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Gyro]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 467
Tweedpipe Offline
Full Member
Tweedpipe  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by Gyro
There are a number of ways this could be done. Say
you want to play middle C and then the next two higher
C's as rapidly as possible in succession.

One way might be to use finger 1 on middle C, 5 on
the second, then quickly replace 5 with 1 and play the
third with 5. This is secure, because you have the
octave span of your hand to judge the distance, but
substituting the fingers takes time.

Another way might be to use 1 on middle C, 5 on the
second, and then hop wholesale with the hand and
play the third with, say, 4. Judging the hop by
feel. The fact that the third C is to the left of
a black key can help, because you can use
that black key as a sort of "backstop" that when
you hit it you know where the third C is. This
is fast, but less secure, but with practice you
can hit it every time.

Or you might use 1 1 1, or 1 5 5, judging the distance
by feel. And so forth.

Blind pianists do this kind of playing with no problem.


This is the first time I agree with comments from Gyro. And this worries me. Either he is improving, or I'm going senile.


Currently working on:-
C Major scale (r/h only - starting with the pinkie finger)......

Dear Noah,
We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5.
Yours sincerely,
The Unicorns



------------------------------

#1236421 - 07/24/09 09:30 AM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Susan K.]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted by Susan K.
Kreisler - Why would you play 1-5-3? Is that to get you into position for what comes after? It feels very good for me to do that. I'm just very curious, because I'm starting to do jumps...


It's the fastest way I can play the three C's. I may or may not completely change based on what comes after.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#1236730 - 07/24/09 04:03 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Kreisler]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
Gary D. Online content
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Online Content
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
South Florida
There is a passage in the Mephisto Walzt where the RH has to play notes with the 2nd finger, then leaps up to octaves (the next two keys, octaves, are played AS an octave), and those leaps have to be played almost blind. The LH is also jumping.

That's why I found 2 1 5 to be fastest, even as separate notes.


Piano Teacher
#1236733 - 07/24/09 04:05 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: John v.d.Brook]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,702
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Minniemay  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,702
CA
Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
When I read this topic, I thought it was going to discuss assault pianos! laugh


Yeah, me too! I think it's really supposed to be "tactile" instead of "tactical." smile


B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano
#1236815 - 07/24/09 06:38 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Minniemay]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 192
Susan K. Offline
Full Member
Susan K.  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 192
Central California
I tried both 1-5-3 and 2-1-5 and found I had more control with 2-1-5 (thank you, Gary D.). To master 1-5-3, I need a finer sense of the geography (which I hope will come with practice) because I couldn't land reliably on that last C. (Though, 1-5-3 worked much better on the black keys.)

#1236890 - 07/24/09 09:42 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Susan K.]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
Gary D. Online content
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Online Content
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
South Florida
The nice thing about 2 1 5 is that you can go both ways:

2 1 5 1 2, returning to your starting place. smile


Piano Teacher
#1237034 - 07/25/09 09:32 AM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: Gary D.]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,945
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,945
Virginia, USA
But I don't think the OP was really asking about fingering.

I can't be sure, but I think his real question is how to learn keyboard geometry (or geography as some of you say).

He used the octave C's as an example. And he mentions that he's been playing by ear, and now is learning to read, so in the past he's been looking at the keys. Now he has to know where the key is - either by tactile feel or by spatial orientation, or by some other method. Not surprisingly his teacher hasn't explained it well yet.



gotta go practice
#1237175 - 07/25/09 02:19 PM Re: tactical piano awareness [Re: TimR]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
Gary D. Online content
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Online Content
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,688
South Florida
I interpreted his question as one about how to get from location 1 to 2 to 3, what happens when the fingers are not able to stretch from one note to another. If the question is about something else, it may need a different answer. smile


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