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My folks have a non-factory PianoDisc player system on their "good quality" piano, and all I can say is that I personally think that the piano feels and plays great. I'm afraid that is the limit of my own personal experience on the matter.
Hopefully someone with a bit more experience on the matter can provide better information than I.
Last edited by Toman; 07/20/09 01:45 PM.
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The most I could say is, read up on it in Fine's Piano Book, though the 4th edition is a few years old now, and that is a long time in the electronic music world. The new update, due out Sept. 1, no doubt will say more about it. The Burgetts, who owned PianoDisc, bought Mason Hamlin, and the units are apparently installed at their factory in Sacramento, though it is also available as an aftermarket add-on for other makes. There are, apparently, many different permutations and varieties of the system, so from what you say it is hard to tell more. Maybe you should try out the piano and give us a report! http://www.pianodisc.com/http://www.masonhamlin.com/The main competitor for player systems would, I suppose, be Yamaha, though there are others. Player systems are sometimes put in very cheap pianos, which if played much, don't hold up too well... but that hardly applies in this case. They do contribute to wear on the instrument. Their contribution to resale value is, generally, zip, if that matters to you. If I were going to have one at all, I would want one that records and acts as a MIDI controller, as well as playing back, but that's me. My understanding is that the installed systems run around ten grand, and then there is the question of the extent of what's available to be played on it, but I am not well-informed about this make. I see that the music library is listed on their website. For my personal needs as a composer, I think I would prefer a dedicated workstation, and for the money a player system costs you could get a seriously good music system and a lot of CDs to play on it. But judging by your shopping list, it doesn't sound like you're pinching pennies, and it might be a nice feature for you. Not a very informative answer, I'm afraid, but I hate for you to feel your question is being ignored. I hope you do let us know what you find out, and what you choose. We love these stories.
Clef
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Thank you, Clef and Toman.
I spoke to one technician, who said he had the impression that these systems wore out the action (I think) differently, since they push the key up at the back rather than pushing down at the front. Also, he mentioned some differences in the engineering of the pedals, which might affect how it feels to play. So I was curious whether this matches with any players' experience.
I have also run across purists who think the electronic systems are just not for serious pianists. It's true that most of the posts elsewhere on this site about player systems are from people who want to hear a real piano, but not play one. I am definitely outside that category; my primary interest is playing. But I'm not a purist, since if it honestly doesn't affect the piano and brings some joy then it's OK with me.
Incidentally, about the penny pinching, in this case the player system is not adding much at all to the cost.
Thanks.
On with the quest, Lisa
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The issue of a player on the new M&H should be transpearant to anyone playing the piano manually. Double check that all three pedal functions have not been compromised. This is the only issue I would have concern with. The wear on the action is no more than if the piano was being played manually. The issue of wear stems from the fact that frequently families with pianos with players utilize them a little more than without. Consider it a bonus if you like the piano and are not paying a lot in addition.
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
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"All good comments above, but I must add you should try out a Charles Walter 190 as well. That is if there is a dealer near you"
Is that because you sell them? I thought you're not supposed to solicit business if your a dealer on this forum...
Choleric Yamaha CVP307 digital piano
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LCpianoplayer:
If cost was not an issue which piano would you buy today?
Choleric Yamaha CVP307 digital piano
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"All good comments above, but I must add you should try out a Charles Walter 190 as well. That is if there is a dealer near you"
Is that because you sell them? I thought you're not supposed to solicit business if your a dealer on this forum... the chance that the OP would buy a CW from Canada is honestly quite small to non-existent. Cut the guy some slacks unless you really enjoy playing forum patrol. I do have to agree the CW190 has a sweet sound though.
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"All good comments above, but I must add you should try out a Charles Walter 190 as well. That is if there is a dealer near you"
Is that because you sell them? I thought you're not supposed to solicit business if your a dealer on this forum... the chance that the OP would buy a CW from Canada is honestly quite small to non-existent. Cut the guy some slacks unless you really enjoy playing forum patrol. I do have to agree the CW190 has a sweet sound though. I agree with your Forum Patrol comment. I have found some of the recommendations from dealers to be very helpful and useful. It is not just the person who started the thread that will necessarily be interested in recommendations and I would love the opportunity to play a CW190. However, as far as I know there are no dealers in Australia.
Oz Marcus Currently working on: Schubert Impromptu in C minor - D899 Chopin Prelude Op28 No 15, nocturne Op48 no 1 Bach Prelude & Fuge WTC II No 12 in F minor Aspiring to Rautavaara - Piano Sonata 2 - Fire Sermon
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I have found some of the recommendations from dealers to be very helpful and useful. It is not just the person who started the thread that will necessarily be interested in recommendations and I would love the opportunity to play a CW190. You don't think dealers could be just a little bit biased? How often do they recommend a piano they don't sell when the buyer's field is wide open? Answer: virtually never. I think dealer recommendations/comments are much more meaningful when the buyer has narrowed the field down to a list of pianos the delaer doesn't sell or a list of pianos that are all available at that dealer. Or when the dealer says something like "we used to sell Brand X and although Brand X is a very good piano I personally found Brand Y to have a richer bass(or whatever specific plus they name)".
Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/21/09 07:58 AM.
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Hi Folks, I have not seen a CW out here yet... but will play one if it appears.
OK, back to the original topic. Thanks for the advice re the pedals, I'll try them out.
Choleric asked what we'd buy if price were not an issue. Surprisingly hard to answer. I wish the Bosendorfer were 10K less; that would make my life easier -- does that mean that's what I want? Bosendorfer or Schimmel are favorites at the moment. I'm thinking in the back of my mind about the duplexe scaling that I think the Schimmel and MH have, and the harmonics this makes -- is that good or would I prefer a clean tone over the long term? This choice resembles marriage or a house purchase. And in some sense all are good choices.
LC
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I recommend pianos that I don't represent all the time. I have recommended Kawai on a regular basis, Estonia, Petrof, Samick and others. I do recommend products I currently sell when I think it is appropriate from the posters remarks. Not all dealers have blood driping from their fangs all the time.
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
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Also bear in mind that whichever piano you choose may sound a bit different in your home.
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I would say, WILL sound different in your home... So buy the AA...
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"Choleric asked what we'd buy if price were not an issue. Surprisingly hard to answer. I wish the Bosendorfer were 10K less; that would make my life easier -- does that mean that's what I want? Bosendorfer or Schimmel are favorites at the moment. I'm thinking in the back of my mind about the duplexe scaling that I think the Schimmel and MH have, and the harmonics this makes -- is that good or would I prefer a clean tone over the long term?"
LCpianoplayer, I have to say that you are taking a well-reasoned approach to your search. Sounds like the Bosie is what you want...what's $10k over the next 50 years? You bring up an interesting point about the duplex scaling. I wonder if the harmonic quality of the sound is made up elsewhere (i.e. soundboard quality, rim, plate, etc...)? Mabye Marty Flinn or BoseEric could jump in and give their take since they sell Bosendorfer. Remember, it's just one feature and you have to take the piano as a whole product working efficiently in conjunction with every other part.
Choleric Yamaha CVP307 digital piano
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LC -
I sent you a PM about a CW 190 that you can see in the SD area. I wish I had room for it . . .
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Hello All, CharlieVictor, did not get your PM, can you please send again?
Would love to hear opinions about the duplexe scaling and sound issues mentioned by Choleric, above. Any comments? When you think about the harmonics that can get going when one hits a note, why just think about the piano? The duplexe scaling is purposefully in the piano, of course, but I wonder how the effect diminishes over distance. It might expand to influence anything in harmonic sight, so to speak, which I guess would be everything nearby that can vibrate in response to sound waves.
But to keep the discussion tame, we can focus on the pianos. Any thoughts?
LC
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Sorry, perhaps I didn't do it correctly. All I wanted to tell you was that I saw a CW 190 on consignment at Piano Warehouse in San Marcos. It's about ten years old, if I recall correctly, so is probably one of the first ones made. While they're a CW dealer, they told me that they don't stock the CW grands because there's so much else available at that price point (read: Petrof).
Just to be clear, let me state that I have no connection with Piano Warehouse, but have visited them several times to look at CW uprights (they're the nearest dealer to me in Long Beach).
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LC, front duplexes are a way of capturing sonic energy which would otherwise be lost. They should kick in at forte.
Re diminishing over distance, duplexes allow the piano to make more volume. If a piano is competing with an orchestra, more volume makes sense. At high volume levels caused by multiple instruments, you can't really judge a piano's tone.
Duplexes are a contentious issue. The dispute concerns whether duplexes contribute to tone or detract from it. Del Fandrich, the designer of the Charles Walter grands, doesn't like them. Del recently did some redesign work on two - I think two, could be more - of Young Chang's grands. One of the changes that he made was to eliminate the duplex. When I posted re how he managed to persuade YC to drop the duplex, he replied to the effect that it was because of the demonstration that he did. (Del can build prototypes, so I'm assuming that he showed the company that tone would be better without the duplexes.)
I think that duplexes capture energy which bleeds out past the speaking length, whereas Del's designs trap the strings' energy in the speaking length.
Here's a quote from Del in a 2004 thread: (His "In general" sentence is a reply to another poster who said that duplexes in pianos in the six foot range don't have any effect.) "In general, this is true. However, on the rare occasions that one of these systems is set up "properly" (i.e., with the aliquot string length actually tuned to some specific harmonic of the fundamental) initial power immediately after impact will be very slightly greater. In all cases, whether the aliquot string segment is properly tuned or not, there will be a loss of sustain time as some string energy is absorbed into the plate and dissipated as heat.
Also, most complaints of string noises - buzzing, miscellaneous twangs, etc. - that show up over time in the two treble sections can be traced to the so-called tuned-duplex design. It saddens me to see this feature being adopted by piano builders who should really know better. About the best that can be said for its proliferation is that it is usually done incorrectly to such an extent that its negative performance aspects are somewhat reduced. It also gives no benefit other than in the marketing spiel.
Del _________________________ Delwin D Fandrich Piano Designer & Builder del@fandrichpiano.com
If a piano that you're considering has a front duplex, you could ask a rep to play something for you which starts soft then increases in volume. That'll help you to form an opinion re the duplex in that instrumet.
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Interesting. But it's one person's opinion. If he designs Charles Walters he will promote their qualities (i.e. no duplex scaling). Question, my understanding is that duplexes actually contribute to the harmonic quality of the sound and add to the overtones that are heard. Am I wrong? How is it that most of the fine pianos in the world use them?
Choleric Yamaha CVP307 digital piano
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choleric, having read several years of Del's posts on the PTG forum archives, I can tell you for a certainty that his dislike for the tonal results of duplexes preceded his designing the Charles Walter grands and, more recently, redesigning Young Chang grands.
Del is one of the most forthright people I've ever encountered. He also routinely builds test rigs, so his opinions are based on solid research.
As for it being one person's opinion, that's true; but that person is, IMO, the most knowledgeable person in the world when it comes to designing pianos. He is most certainly the most knowledgeable person writing in the English language.
BTW you may occasionally see posts by owners of, for example, Knabe and Estonia to the effect that they'll get used to the duplexes. Haven't seen any yet saying owners love the sound that results when the duplex kicks in.
Duplexes were, I think, copied from Steinway. Steinways were conceived as performance pianos at a time when pianos at home were losing popularity. The duplexes do augment the sound, but it's an open question as to whether that augmentation constitutes an improvement.
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