Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.

Thanks guys!

I normally take much more time over learning something. It still doesn't feel in any way comfortable, and I know it needs to be faster.

That was a great job TLT, best yet. I think it was swinging fine and you phrased it correctly (Knotty -- detached on quarters is idiomatically correct).

Now where would I improve on this? First, I would play a Charleston on the LH. You did not do it here and this is where it fits perfectly. Learn to time the Charleston to 2 and 4 and it will give you a nice impetus.

As I said in my lesson, the #1 problem is 'Good Time'. Without good time the swing is lost. you're swinging is just fine and it will sound good once you get the time a little better. It wasn't just middle rushing, it was off from the beginning. So tap you feet to beat 1 and 3 so you subdivide. And maybe sing the the beat in your head while you play. (I'm not good at scat words but something that divides into quarters like ga-ga-ga-ga or doo-bah-doo-bah).

Now is this improvised or is it written music? I'm going to assume it's not improvised.

BTW - TLT, it's fine to skip AL and go to blues. Same thing at this stage of the game for swing and LH comping. AL (or some other standard) is the only way to go though for 2+3 voicings and rootless and such.

Tempo is perfect. I wouldn't speed it up at this stage until your time gets better. It's harder to play slower.

Stabby - do you know all the major scales? That's absolutely #1 on the theory discussion. Then there's a theory section in this thread. See if you can absorb that.

Beyond that, you must know and memorize what this means:
Root,b9,9,#9(b3),11,#11(b5),5,b13,13,b7,7

I believe a lot of this is explained in theory section of this thread.

Unfortunately, jazz is all about music theory. You will need to learn more music theory than a classical player. So eventually, you will need to learn everything.

Thanks jazzwee! Yes this was from written music and I was very focussed on getting it *right*. I played the rhythms as they were written. In many ways it was a bit beyond me, but that's fine, I'll just keep plodding until it begins to feel natural. There's been much talk here of rootless voicings, but this is the first time I've come across them (at least, that's what I think they are).

I needed a break from Autumn Leaves - I was getting bored with the way I was playing the tune.

Like I said, I'm about to go on holiday, so will hopefully come back refreshed!

Stabby - There is, as you realise, a huge amount of theory to take in. But you can't just sit and read it all. You want my advice?

Don't sit and read. Learn your theory at the piano. Play it, listen to it, teach your fingers how it feels, all at the same time. So, for example, you sit and learn a major scale. That's good practice for your fingers. Now notice how the notes progress - sometimes there's a whole tone between notes, sometimes just a semitone. Listen to that interval, notice how it sounds. Be able to tell the difference between two notes played together that are a whole tone apart, and a semitone apart. Learn an arpeggio, and you will learn the 3rd and 5th intervals too.

There are all kinds of aural-learning packages out there which will help with this.

I can't tell you which bit of theory is most important. It's all important. But I can tell you that if you aim to integrate your understanding of theory with developing your muscial ear, then you won't see theory as a dry subject. You will see how it is there to develop your musicianship.

I think that ought to be restated. Jazz is about creating beautiful music.

I don't think you need to know much theory at all. I think you can just learn it as you go.

More important is ear and technique. Without either of those, you're not going very far.

Do learn your scales

Sorry. Rephrasing: Jazz is not all about theory but Jazz needs a lot of theory.

Doing things like Reharmonizations and substitutions and even basic things like playing ii-V-I's need understanding of theory.

Playing a tune like Giant Steps is very difficult melodically for example. A lot of it has to be intellectually based.

Doing various voicings requires a lot of theory, etc.

I was reading a book on Dizzy Gillespie and how he and Charlie Parker started Bebop. What was amazing, outside from the playing was all the "Theory" discussions they were having, together with guys like Thelonius Monk. Coltrane, Miles Davis, Gil Evans understood theory to a very, very high level and showed in their compositions. Miles is of course from Julliard. Bill Evans developed the rootless voicings and various reharmonizations with a solid command of theory.

Is it the only part of the formula? Obviously not.

But if the Leadsheet says you need to play G7#5, you will need to know what it is NOT literally G7#5 and that it probably assumes ALT. If someone presents one with an Em7b5, then you better know what scale to play on that.

Now if one just stuck to something simple like the Blues, then theory is not too important. In my Jazz studies, my theory knowledge is assumed.

A beginner though can get started just knowing the major scales and this for each scale:
Root,b9,9,#9(b3),3,11,#11(b5),5,b13,13,b7,7

(BTW - Stubby, those symbols above are just the identifier for each half step for each Major scale - 12 steps in total). If you memorize that, you could construct any chord. There's an actual lesson in here about that.

right, but if Bird had huge theory background, his technique was beyond belief.

Someone with amazing technique and no theory at all could play like Bird. Not the other way around.


I'm not so sure about that.
What you need is to understand the melody, hear the changes, and play something that sounds good on top.
I'm not so convinced scales on top of chords are the answer.

So I'd say pick up the theory you need as you need it. There are a lot of folks who don't know the first thing about reharmonization. They just hear something they like, and play it. I think as a beginner, you can go on for a long time with very little theory.
Then you start analyzing what's going on in the great stuff that you hear. But the understanding comes after the hearing and the understanding.
If you cannot hear it, or play it, you will not be able to apply it, it 's good for dinner conversations

I think the point I'm trying to make is that theory will become a tool to help you understand and memorize what to play.

Ask a jazz musician what notes he just played, he usually does not remember. Ask him what he played and often, it's about theory. And often, it will come with a reference: So and so plays this kind of stuff on that record.

So you listen to Ella. You like, you play. You know the chord is Dbma7, you analyze the run she's using on top of it. Then you remember that Db minor pentatonic sounds cool. And that becomes a favorite of yours.

If you attempt the other way around:
"A Train" start with Dbmaj7, now I read in that book that the pentatonic works, let me try. It will be a much harder path to sounding good.

Same for your own stuff, let the sound guide you, then by all means try to understand why your stuff works, and memorize it that way.

As far as the original advice to Stabby, I agree 100%. Scales and chords. Practice them both, a lot.

Knotty, that just shows your different training approach which of course there are many and valid. But I started off with learning chord tones on downbeats. And I didn't spend much time ever learning a lick. I recognized them all later after.

My teacher used theory to train my ears so that later I didn't need theory. Doing chord tones on downbeats requires a lot of intellectualizing and math. And he specifically points to the mathematics in jazz and how that has to be understood.

The difference is that when I play, I don't feel like I sound like I was taking a lick from anyone. Of course, I still have a vocabulary that I had to build but not in the sense of sitting around transcribing and copying. I didn't do much of that. If anything, my understand of licks is in 3 or 4 note sets which is not really recognizable as such but my ears can duplicate it.

I don't think about theory at all when I play nor scales, though I have an instant visualization of chord tones and extensions. And I know what they sound like to my ears when I play them.

So after 3 jazz teachers of experience, theory was very important in my training. It's a valid method of training ones ears.

Like I said, 'Giant Steps' is not something you can play by ear alone. And I can name 50 other tunes like that.

Now how far does one need to take theory? Well I don't particularly remember every Mode of the Melodic Minor. You can certainly survive not ever knowing a single mode.

Well correction, you can survive with little, if you don't do a lot of modulating tunes. But there aren't many of that in my set list I'm afraid. So why be limited?

I have to play Giant Steps in a couple of weeks so this topic is fresh in mind I have been trying to play that melodically for years and I have been stumped. Then a little intellectualizing and suddenly it becomes easy.

Specifically something that the ear cannot absorb immediately are sounds of half-diminished and diminished scales. These have an effect of dissonance to the untrained.

If you gave a beginner tunes that are full of Alt chords, Half diminished, with modulation in thirds, do you think someone can grasp that? Without some sort of theoretical framework, you'd have to be Charlie Parker to figure it out. And you won't have that kind of time if someone slaps a new Leadsheet in front of you to play in the next few minutes. You may not hear anything melodic to hang on to. I don't think it's fair to say to a beginner. You're on your own. Figure it out by ear.

When Coltrane started playing half-whole diminished scales on dominants, people said: What is he playing? They couldn't grasp the sound. Or playing Lydian on a major chord (#11).

These are things that the ear must first be trained to absorb just like using the sound of quartals, or the unique sound of a Herbie 'Maiden Voyage' chord, or even the Bill Evans rootless voicings.

If you want to go beyond Louis Armstrong, then there are more mysteries, and they have been solved.

BTW Knotty - as usual, I know we're not that far here. I don't believe full memorization of Levine's book is essential.

yes, many ways to learn music.


Ah but you see, that's where I disagree. You do not transcribe to learn licks. My message isn't getting through, evidently


There I agree. So study those who have solved them.

Go to page 73 of Metaphors for the musician. I think he describes the difference in views perfectly.

To me, the links between Math and Music is highly overrated. I'm a mathematician. When a musician tells me they feel like one, I laugh (inside). I do not want to approach the two topics the same way. At all. I don't even want to sound good most of the time. I just want to explore what's inside. When music comes out from inside, that's when I feel satisfaction. I get plenty of time to exercise the side of the brain that digs with logic. Music, to me, is about something else.

My comment on licks was my own. I've often repeated that here. I have a teacher who has a distinct sound. And I've learned how to train my ears based on his methodology. He's training new young jazzers at the University who can create new sounds in jazz and yet he has not given me any vocabulary. He studied under the old masters and played with them. Regardless of other approaches (and they are as valid as our debate here), this is an approach I know deeply and it works. And you're not going to get a degree in Jazz performance without a full dose of theory.

Like I said, it is not fair to just drop a leadsheet of 'Giant Steps' to a beginner and say, play this by ear.

I think we understand what my teacher was referencing with math in music. We're talking about patterns and symmetry.

Knotty, clearly from this discussion, it would indicate that when you and I play, we will not solo like each other at all since we would come from a completely different base. You favor older styles of jazz, and I favor styles that build on Bill Evans' legacy.

That's fine and shows the wide range of jazz styles that one can pick. And it's interesting for a reader to note that there are different approaches with different effects.

30 minute class on swing. Lots of good tips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqAZgKR2HQc&feature=channel_page

Knotty - That is an excellent video. Thank you for the link.

Very nice Knotty. He got through the basics. I wish his melody example was a little simpler so it can actually be studied in small portions. But it is truly a complex topic and nothing like actually playing it to demonstrate the point. We can only 'talk' about it so much

Jazzwee - I printed out the article link you posted last week:

http://www.banddirector.com/printarticle/learning-swing-feel

It goes real well with Knotty's swing link 3 posts above.

I thought the links should be on one page here. They are both excellent.

Wow, we have a lot of pages in this neverending thread.

Looks like 7 note mode is another treasure to be cherished! I just watched the first part only - very helpful, but I'm not sure I'll ever manage the de-bap-a-doo-bap-a-diddly-diddly-doobidy-dabiddy bit without dissolving into tears!

Tlt,

What he explains there, imho, is exactly what you need to do. Whether you use the same syllables or not, but singing on top of solos is key. He starts at Charlie Parker, I recommend starting before that and working your way to more recent stuff.

I will tell you that if you spend a few hours singing along to Charlie Parker's solo, you will be blown away. It's one thing to know about Parker, know and understand what he did.
It's another to hear it in action.

The other guys, I'm not sure he mentions them or not, that you should study, analyze, and sing along to are Armstrong, Lester Young, Fats Navarro, Miles, Clifford Brown, Coltrane, Metheny, and more. Studying non-pianist will help you expand beyond what is comfortable to play on the piano.

If you take it more or less in that order, you will really be able to work your way up.

to me, 7notemode has the best jazz piano tutorials on youtube.

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