Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.

Barb, My tastes aren't the same as ritincop (which ritincop and I have discussed to no end) so understand that this is a personal decision. I did not find the last recording to be too straight.

In general, at a faster tempo, I lean along these lines...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=356pcstEpEQ

...which as you can see is pretty straight. But the difference is that as you mature with playing, you don't play them exactly on the beat and this adds to the swing feel just like Mehldau. The swing impulse can be created in different ways, I find.

Sometimes it's in the approximation of a triplet feel, sometimes it's in the positioning of the line in relation to the beat (like playing straight but landing the notes in a time span between 2:1 and 1.5:1 between two swinging eights). Hard to explain, but basically you can play straight eights but if you land the notes at points where a normal swing eight would start or end, you can suggest the swing.

There's no one answer to swing. But in general, ritincop's comment about relaxing is what comes into play since relaxing in itself causes natural actions to occur like dragging (slight rubato changes).

This will come Barb. I think you're practicing this correctly. In general, the fact that you adjust your swing to the tempo is essential. The mechanical aspects of this will disappear as your muscles do this automatically and your subsconcious takes over. You will know you are there when you stop thinking about it

Pay attention to the swing style of your favorite jazzers but this time, note the tempo at which the style applies.

So to conclude the summary point:

Different Tempo = Different Swing Style

Jazzwee - Thank you for the feedback. Bottom line, I know, is to relax .

I loved that Giant Steps youtube link. He can really swing!!!

Glad you are back into the computer world.

Rosa, sorry I missed you posted recording. It sounded great and shows a lot of hard work put in there.

Now that you've got the notes in, start thinking about the swing as at the moment it has none at all. Although you accent, at this slow tempo, there has to be some swing. This is not dissimilar to my discussion with Barb.

At slower tempos, each pair of eight notes are closer to the 2:1 ratio. As you speed up it goes closer to the 1:1 ratio. Although what you're playing doesn't sound fast, the way Chris Bell has it written is two chords to a measure. As you know the real ATTTYA is one chord per measure so these notes would be quarter notes if played like the real ATTYA. So to emulate eighths it would have to be double time.

Anyway, you have to focus on not playing this like classical music. Swing Rosa! Swing! Lengthen the first eighth note and shorten the second eighth note of each pair (at this tempo).

Right now all the notes are even (1:1 for each pair of eights).

I will not stop until I get all of you to swing (without which there will be no jazz). Keep trying on swinging this. I'll help you out.

SWING SWING SWING YES YES YES

Here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/tfu12l0wsw

I literally recorded myself 58 times to listen to myself again to see if I was able to get the swing and accent. Sometimes I would have the 2:1 ratio but not the accent and sometimes the accent is there but not the 2:1 ratio.

I think I better hand this in for inspection before bad habits set in.

Tho' 58 times but kinda fun to mess around. Stomache feels it too. Heeee Heeee.

Good Evening Rosa! Yes, that time you've got swing. Good Job!!!

Yes Rosa, I think you got it that time. It sounded like you didn't pick up the swing until about 0:10 into the recording. But you kept it up from there to the end. Only 58 tries huh? Not so bad. Man, I'm scared to consider how many takes I use trying to get something down.

Rosa - I heard that swing. I listened to your first version, then this version. This one really sounds good. I guess 58 is the magic number.

Now were talkin' Rosa! Great job. I was amazed you did this so fast. Barb is right. 58 times is not bad at all. You have the talent for this. :thumb

Just to reiterate the refinement to the swing discussion that I was having with Barb. In the early lessons, I just said, to swing, accent the upbeats.

Now we're into advanced concepts now. The slower you go, the ratio is closer to 2:1, the faster you go the ratio is closer to 1:1. At all times the accents exist on the upbeat.

There's another layer here. As you listen to jazz masters, you will find that even the accent level is not constant. You may find accenting at a secondary layer which accentuates phrases. Someone like Tristano will accent at some geometric interval to imply different time.

For example, this same exercise you're doing here from Chris is based on 3 eighth notes and a rest per chord. If you took the rest out, you'd be playing an implied 3/4 tune (or playing a triplet) instead of 4 notes. This is something that Bill Evans also did using arpeggios. When playing triplets the accent is on the 1st note.

The other thing that we've discussed over and over is that true swing isn't a pure 2:1. This is the most exaggerated form. Rosa, you came close to 2:1 which is exactly right. I did not sound exaggerated to me. Exaggerated or an actual 2:1 ratio sounds corny. 1:1 is not good either. Even that Giant steps youtube I posted is not 1:1 although it is played fairly straight.

If you analyzed a recording of any player, the swing ratio is never constant. It shifts from hard to straight in varying degrees and part of playing a relaxed swing is varying this for effect.

Then there's the dragging that is also found in swing. Again the dragging varies. Dragging adds tension so this is also released by restoring time.

One final thing is that you must have the ability to play the lines with perfect legato while swinging. This is what differentiates the big guns of jazz. They can do it even at high speed. This is more of a technique thing. In some of your arp playing, sometimes the legato isn't perfect so keep an eye on this.

When there's a rest, and you're supposed to cut off the eighth, make sure to play the eighth short. Like the second note of a swing pair. There's a lot of eighths with rests in Chris' exercise.

Practicing swing is a technical skill like learning to play even scales. It is not easy to do but daily practice is required so it sounds relaxed and automatic.

Watch Hiromi swing hard in solo piano.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ggL_2hk9DyI

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p5heNtehwZg

This is what everyone should shoot for in solo piano. Play like this in a hotel or bar and you won't be background music...

BTW - I found this amusing.

Here's a young guy playing an exact transcription of Hiromi using Sheet music. Something that detractors from this thread will love.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eeHI-6xuei8

But this dude is like tied to looking at the music and there is no music creation. He is a mere playback machine now. This is not jazz. Hiromi would not play this the same way twice. I know, I watched Hiromi play this in person.

This is what btb over at the Teacher's Forum seeks to promote. Well at least this guy can emulate the swing and is technically very adept.

But imperfection is ok as long as it's music creation IMHO. Jazz is about the moment and instantaneous creation. There's a thrill knowing you can play anything, sometimes you do it well, sometimes you don't. But the masters who can play well practically all the time is another source of amazement.

Jazzwee - the youtube link you posted right above at 3:29 PM is the same as the second youtube link you posted at 2:51 PM.

oops...corrected

.

Thanks to all for pointing me to the right direction and Jazzwee for your detailed pointers.

Next, I am going to try the Evans arp variation for Autumn Leaves.

Question:

1. Last time I did the Evans arps going up and down, the 9th was on the upbeat, does it matter whether the 9th is on beat or off beat?

For eg. can I do something like this?

Am7 -- C E E C B G E G

(The C and the B is next to one another)

2. Using the same 80bpm, what is the swing ratio?

Rosa

Hi Rosa, for the Arp exercise, all notes are chord tones with the 9th being the only extension so here we're not going to worry about whether it is on the upbeat or downbeat as the bulk of the notes already define the harmony.

So it doesn't matter. 80bpm is not normally a tempo for jazz tunes so I'll generalize by saying that at 100bpm or thereabouts, you'll be using a maximum swing ratio (close to 2:1).

Most medium swing (non ballad) jazz tunes range form 100-160bpm or so after which they would be uptempo.

This is the range where swing IMO is distinctly heard.

Seeing that you're only practicing at 80bpm, I would play the swing as I would at 100bpm (i.e hard swing and strong accents on upbeats).

This is good that you're practicing this Rosa as this is a good source for jazz vocabulary even in ballad style.

Bump.

Hi All,

What's everyone been up to? I don't know how many of you are still practicing improvisation. I've been working hard on the Bill Evans ARP practice with left hand rootless. Also working up my voiced arrangement of ballad style AL. To be honest, I have been "happily" putting off improv practice. Improvising has always been a bit unnerving to me .... kind of like being thrown into the deep end of a swimming pool and not knowing how to swim. Then I read Jazzwee's comments from a few days ago (page 47):

After I read this, it struck a nerve. I read it over several times. I then printed it out in large font so it took up the entire page of paper. That day, during my next Arp practice, I tried improvising using those familiar chord tones through the ninth. An amazing thing happened. I was no longer fearful. The fear that was associated with improvising has turned into excitement.

Jazzwee's words sit on my music stand when I practice my AL improvisation. I actually find it thrilling to create in the moment.

Thank you, Jazzwee for shedding some light on the subject of Jazz Improvisation. I bet you don't even realize it when you come up with these motivational gems.

When I was watching my teacher play a couple of weeks ago, his group hasn't played together in over a year and aside from making the record, they don't ever practice.

Then they played at this gig and it's a concert setting, quiet, where everyone's playing is completely exposed. They were obviously not warmed up, probably just stepping to the piano for the first time.

Then in the first 30 seconds of playing, he plays a wrong note. No problem...he highlights the wrong note and plays another wrong note.

After that one tune, he was back in saddle like they've been playing everyday. Of course he felt bad about the wrong note especially since I noticed (well, of course I'm a jazzer so I would notice). But in a sense it was motivating. Here's a top player making mistakes. They always make a mistake.

The answer of course is that in jazz there is never a wrong note, as long as you play it like you mean it. So that's what I meant by that little 'motivational' phrase.

After this little experience, even I felt less concerned about playing in front of my teacher because I felt that since he can make mistakes, I can be entitled to that too.

So in case you don't know, I make TONS of mistakes. Hopefully that motivates you all as well. In general, the more complex we do stuff the more the chance of error. But do we take the easy way out (simplification)? Or do we challenge ourselves a little bit? For a complete learning experience, I think it is better to plod on knowing our imperfections.

.

Hi Gang - Talk is cheap, so I decided to just go for it. Here is my right hand only doing some arp improvisation. I "boosted" the speed to a rollicking 105 bmp. I had been practicing improv the past few days at 90 bpm. This morning, I relistened to Deeluk's latest and clocked him at around 105. So, I got brave and set the tempo there.

When I add the left hand rootless, the speed has to be slower. Didn't want to put you to sleep listening to that

http://www.box.net/shared/r4v3ilegwo