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#1224504 - 06/29/09 02:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Jazzwee - Sudnow teaches those Bill Evans rootless voicings as well as those colorful right hand voicings under the melody note. The left hand starts with root,7, octaves, or root,5.

The rootless stuff took a good year for me before it went on autopilot.

Different chords on the fly sounds wonderful. I like those Frank Mantooth books that give alternate chord changes.





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#1224528 - 06/29/09 02:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]  
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thanks for the info Barb. It sure sounded Sudnow incorporated jazz voicings just by the snippets I read and the sound of playing by followers like Balladeer. Makes it a very nice base to start from.

Regarding chord substitutions, they are as individualized as there are jazzers I'm sure. I have my own set of variations that I use (not include Tritone subs which are obvious), which I learned from my teacher. The variations make them hard to teach since they can reach from slightly dissonant to highly dissonant, or in some cases they go the opposite route of making the harmony vague by obscuring chord quality. It's trial and error sometimes and then you make a discovery that turns out great.







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#1224549 - 06/29/09 03:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Jazzwee, I agree. Sudnow is an excellent starting base for that jazzy sound.

You mention Balladeer - isn't he something! What a sound he gets.

Originally Posted by jazzwee
It's trial and error sometimes and then you make a discovery that turns out great.


I know you are having a grand time on your musical journey. The fun doesn't stop for me, either grin


Last edited by Swingin' Barb; 06/29/09 03:12 PM.

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#1224556 - 06/29/09 03:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]  
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Barb,
I had not visited your page in a year or so, and I am really amazed at how good you sound.

Jazzwee,
what's an example of a variation in your arsenal?

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#1224569 - 06/29/09 03:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]  
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Thanks, Knotty.

And I just visited your blog spot. I heard some very cool sounds. You are becoming quite a jazzer. Also, was that your kids in the background? Cute! 3hearts



A Sudnow Method Fanatic
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To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com
#1224591 - 06/29/09 04:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]  
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Knotty, one example is doing subs in intervals of a minor third, particularly on dominants, giving you 4 variations to each dominant that you can try. But I've got it down to something I can do on the fly.

Or another one that others commonly apply is to change the bass note, which has the effect of making a slash chord and changes the quality of the chord. This is mostly trial and error.

Another is sub'ing with a chord a tritone away on non-dominants.

Other obvious ones are quartal subs, with changing roots.

Some of this are tune specific for me, so it's a matter of experimentation I suppose.




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#1224832 - 06/30/09 12:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Barb, your playing sounds great! I too haven't visited your site for awhile. Obviously you've got those color tones figured out.


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#1224903 - 06/30/09 06:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Thank you Jazzwee.

RE: those color tones. I guess you could say that the Sudnow method is firmly entrenched in my fingers. smile


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#1225429 - 07/01/09 04:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]  
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Just going to recap what I'm actually working on just now, before I get too distracted:

1. Integrating pickup notes into the improvisation. Also repeated quavers at the end of phrases.

2. Playing with the 'nome set to beats 2 and 4.

3. Syncopating those 3 notes.

4. Getting comfy with 1/5/7, 1/3/7 and 1/3.

5. Arpeggiating. 1-7-10-7 sounds reasonably OK but 3-5-7-9 is just plain weird. What is my RH supposed to be doing with these rootless arpeggios? If I've just got the melody going then I just end up playing bald octaves on the 3rd of the chord. eek Not good.

I think that's enough to be getting on with! smile

#1225473 - 07/01/09 08:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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Quote

1. Integrating pickup notes into the improvisation

Starting on 4'and' is most common in jazz. So that's a good place to start. But you want to be able to start at any time. That's part of how you create surprise.
You could make it an exercise in your solo to purposely start all your lines one something, then something else.

The same rule can be applied to ending. Practice ending at any point in the bar. Again 4'and' sounds most "hip", but change it up a bit.

I would give yourself early exposure to this so you can find what you like.

And the duration of your line if something to play with also. Short lines / long lines. Find a good balance. Again, an exercise could be to purposely do a solo with only long lines 4 bars or more. Then only short lines, 1 or 2 bars. A good balance will make the line sound more like a real conversation.



take care.

#1225663 - 07/01/09 02:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

5. Arpeggiating. 1-7-10-7 sounds reasonably OK but 3-5-7-9 is just plain weird. What is my RH supposed to be doing with these rootless arpeggios? If I've just got the melody going then I just end up playing bald octaves on the 3rd of the chord. eek Not good.


Hi TLT - You lost me a bit. Are you using the 3-5-7-9 in the right hand for improvising? I think that is what the 3-5-7-9 is all about. Jazzwee will correct me if I'm wrong here.

Barb


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#1225742 - 07/01/09 04:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]  
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TLT, 3-5-7-9 is played with eighth notes as part of an improvisational line on the RH. So it is useful to practice it. It is a common cliche that sounds good. Now these are only 4 notes so how would you fit it in a bar?

Let me get you thinking here. Obviously you can add notes but skipping that for now, let's look at some options on how to practice this:

1. Don't start at beat1 and don't end at beat 4 - that will already reduce your line. Because the 9 is not a primary chord tone, you should start this at the beat (1,2,3,4) so primary chord tones are on the beat.

2. After reaching the end of the arpeggio, start again with 3. For example, 3-5-7-9-3.

3. Don't make all the notes eighths. For example, the first note could be a half note or a quarter.

4. The arpeggio can go backward too.

5. The notes can repeat. For example, 3-5-3-5-7-9

So there are plenty of permutations and combinations here. The point is that you note to feel comfortable finding this sequence for every chord in a bar and with ease.

Chord tones are the baseline in improvising so these should be always at the ready in your arsenal.

One more aside, remember that for practice, I said start first with a 4+ pickup. So add an approach note to the 3 and you're in business. For example, start from a half step below the 3.



Last edited by jazzwee; 07/01/09 04:56 PM.

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#1225747 - 07/01/09 04:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Ah - it goes in the *right* hand! rofl Well, that makes it all different...

smile

I suppose this is how my husband feels when I tell him how to cook. ('What do you mean I was supposed to put salt in it?')

#1225756 - 07/01/09 05:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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after my long explanation? smile smile ha I hope it didn't go to waste.


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#1225770 - 07/01/09 05:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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I thought y'all might be interested in this version of autumn leaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBwBhsRo3tM

While this is quite advanced, you can hear and see a lot of what is being explained here.

#1225777 - 07/01/09 05:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]  
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jazzwee - nothing you say ever goes to waste.

Knotty - what a fantastic find. I bookmarked that link. How do you find that great stuff?


A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com
#1225809 - 07/01/09 06:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Swingin' Barb]  
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knotty - that one is fantastic! Now I notice, I hear better when I can see it too.

jazzwee - I was simply thrown because we started discussing arpeggios in the context of LH strategies. And you guys talk such wierd stuff, right now I'd believe just about anything.

#1225963 - 07/02/09 12:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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Knotty, thanks for that great find!

Barb, you are way too kind smile

TLT, one these days, you'll be talking weird like us too and you'll be playing Bach with a little bit of swing smile


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#1226017 - 07/02/09 06:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee


TLT, one these days, you'll be talking weird like us too and you'll be playing Bach with a little bit of swing smile


Yes, I can see that, and I think JS would approve! smile

Today is our last day of school, so I thought I would post a few reflections here on the learning process so far. Tomorrow I won't have a much time and peace!

Learning jazz has been very different from learning blues. Blues forms you can boil down to a few quite simple things, stick them in a book, which I can pick up and work through relatively easily. Now, I'm not saying I've mastered blues or anything, but I can certainly make a convincing sound, and that's after only a few months reading a single book. It's not so very different that I can't apply my classical skills.

Jazz, like I say, has been a different story. It has its own language, which is different enough from classical that I am very much, at sea. It is, as Cathy (jotur) said in another thread, a question of being a complete beginner again. The rhythm (but not just the rhythm, the accents too), the harmony, the sense of melody, everything needs to be relearned. Added into that that I also want to improvise.

So I'm a novice and I want to be an expert. The problem with that is that when you are a novice, before you can be an expert, you need to go through different phases that really sound nothing like 'the real (expert) thing', before you can get there. Fortunately, we've all here learned at least one musical instrument before, so we're all familiar with the process.

So what I've done to help break it down is taken the Associated Board's 'manual' for teachers and students and the Grade 2 syllabus (aka: jazz for 8-year olds) and made a start on that. And this has been amazing. Maybe it's because I grew up with the AB exams, maybe it's because the guy on the CD talks like me, but this material really speaks to me.

The ethos is that it has to sound musical, right from the start. So, for improvising, they start with clapping Q&A exercises. Then they give you 2 notes to improvise with over 2 bars. So these boundaries that they give you (see what you can do with only 2 notes) are really helpful. A lot of the advice is just the same as what I've learned here (improvise from the scale, improvise from the chord, be prepared to start on any beat or off beat of the bar) but it's presented to me in more manageable chunks. And I can, reasonably swiftly, produce a musical sound.

I'll give another example. Knotty has said here, to listen to jazz musicians and emulate them. Good advice, I'm sure it's a great technique. But I listen to real jazz musicians over a 5-minute period (they never play for less than 5 minutes) and I don't know where to begin. What I'm hearing is complex and my ear just doesn't pick up things it doesn't understand. Show me the written music at the same time (as with that youtube clip) and it's somewhat better, but still way over my head.

Then I take the same task to the grade 2 CD and suddenly it makes sense. Yes, I can notice that little bit of syncopation, and I see here where he deviates from what's on the page, and I can work it out and play it myself. smile

My goodness me, I haven't half rambled here! Anyway, I made a recording and put it on the July piano bar, of one of my favourite pieces from grade 2, Becky's song. Naturally, as I'm doing this without a teacher, if anyone has any comments (here, there or privately), they will be appreciated. smile And I will continue, both from the AL angle and from the AB angle, because they do seem to be complementing each other. And if you're still here, thanks for sticking with the post!

#1226060 - 07/02/09 08:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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interesting post. Jazz is certainly a fascinating journey, and I think everyone approaches it in a different way. Especially because we are adults and --unlike children-- we don't just accept whatever is fed to us. We challenge, and based on our past experience, we think we know what's best for us.

I will pick up on the following because I think my message didn't come out clear:
Quote

I'll give another example. Knotty has said here, to listen to jazz musicians and emulate them. Good advice, I'm sure it's a great technique. But I listen to real jazz musicians over a 5-minute period (they never play for less than 5 minutes) and I don't know where to begin. What I'm hearing is complex and my ear just doesn't pick up things it doesn't understand. Show me the written music at the same time (as with that youtube clip) and it's somewhat better, but still way over my head.

It's a good idea to put Coltrane in the CD player. And listen. If anything, enjoy one of the most satisfying tone ever. No-one plays lush life like Coltrane.

But obviously, don't expect to understand much of what he's doing. Just enjoy it.

If you want to hear everything that's going on, you have to start simple. And that is why I recommend early stuff. You see, jazz musicians learned from who came before them. So it's good to go chronologically.
Louis uses less scales, chromatism, passing chords and chromatisms than Parker. So start with Louis, not Parker.
Dont just play the CD once and voila.
Put it in a piece of software that will allow you to loop over a small 1 second section. And sing that section perfectly.
I use Transcribe!, so I can slow it down. You actually get to hear a lot of the mistakes, and notes in between. But that gives you an opportunity to really hear.
So there's nothing complicated about this. One second at a time. It's nothing but discipline. There should be no question on where to start this exercise. If you want example of which specific record to transcribe, let me know. (it's not Hello Dolly smile )
How detail you want to go about it is up to you. But if you manage to -in the end- sing a whole solo. You've made progress.

The other option is to just listen to the same record over and over again. I listened to tons of Lester Young as a kid and I know of lot of his solos by heart from that time.

This is something you can do when you're sick of playing, or need a break.

This is getting your ear to understand the jazz vocabulary.

In the same way, do you think someone could be a good writer unless they had read thousands of books. Theory is all good, it is, it helps. Knowing how to apply theory is even better.




#1226125 - 07/02/09 11:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]  
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Yes, Knotty, you did mention Armstrong, and he is simpler. I just find this works better with really, really simple things, when I have the music in front of me. Probably the software would help, I'm just not that technologically inspired. Or maybe not that dedicated! smile

btw, I love Hello Dolly. We played it in the school band, and there was a glorious cornet solo, which I just belted out. Probably my finest hour. Ever.

#1226135 - 07/02/09 11:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]  
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TLT, I hear you and Knotty's comments are well said.

Now your expectations are pretty high for a few weeks of doing this. The rhythmic element of this alone will take a few years.

As a reference to my own personal experience, I didn't start with Armstrong or any older jazz. But I did start with the Blues. Blues is the base of jazz so I started out doing blues licks and Blues comping.

In the end they merge (Blues and Jazz). Blues provides the rhythmic elements and a simple improvisational platform (uncomplicated chords and scales).

Not a bad thing to do it together.

At the early stages of listening to jazz, you will not have capacity to absorb the intricacies of what the players are doing. And my lord, Coltrane is probably the most complex of the bunch.

But there are little things that you can absorb at this stage. Listen just to a few elements at a time. This applies to the most complex player or the simplest.

Tips:

1. Note the length of their lines. Note the frequent stops which we call 'breathing'.

2. Note where they start and end their lines.

3. Note when notes are going up the scale and down the scale (i.e. notice that it cycles back and forth).

4. Note how they swing.

Beyond that, just enjoy it. It takes years to get the point of recognizing the notes they play. I have a teacher who, after hearing it once (and played at fast tempo), can recreate the entire line including the chords. That is just mind boggling to me. It shows how far I have to go. We're just at different stages of a long journey.

So take it easy and believe it or not, when I listen to your playing, I look for little clues that you're getting it. You may not know what I'm listening for. You're getting there.










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#1226161 - 07/02/09 01:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Hey tlt,

Hello Dolly sure was a hit. I mention it because the story goes the Louis travelled to NY to record something, and he was asked to play that tune, which he thought was really dumb.
Apparently, he did not remember recording it, until, back in Chicago, folks starting recognizing him as the 'Hello Dolly' guy. His biggest hit ever.

As for dedication, maybe it is not for everybody. Now you mention having notes in front of you. And I think this is a perfectly ok way to learn the language. By all means, go for it.
This is the easiest of a suite of recordings I did over the last few years. Take a quick look. You can find the sheet and the track for this. I have this for Piano / Clarinet and Tenor Sax. It is garanteed immediate fun.

Despite what some might tell you, there's nothing wrong playing jazz from sheet.



Play this along with the pianist, then on your own. Someone with classical background should be able to sightread this easily. It does use, even at this level, some good ideas for left hand voicings. And it is a blues.

That's yet another way to go about learning jazz.


Last edited by knotty; 07/02/09 01:09 PM.
#1226168 - 07/02/09 01:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]  
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Actually, I learned by first Blues licks from a book. And I had to finish the whole book of Blues. And I was such an extremely bad Notation reader then (now I'm just moderately bad).

But I also have to say that I was studying AL at the same time just like we're doing now so at least from my limited experience, all of this helps.

My early teachers relied on notation to teach me jazz because a lot of his students were transitioning from classical. But I caution you to grow out of that when improvising because Jazz comes from your own brain and not from the music notation in front of you. It's ok as a start.



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#1226180 - 07/02/09 01:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
A letter from Robert Schumann:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XwewdOndknUC&pg=PA271&lpg=PA271&dq=robert+schuman+%22inner+ear%22&source=bl&ots=8u2P6x7fnC&sig=uBJBUWlPtqeu7CNTZMKVMrUoZBE&hl=en&ei=h-9MSvWqAoXeNeC76eQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10


#1226185 - 07/02/09 01:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]  
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jazzwee Offline
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+1 So well put there Knotty


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#1226191 - 07/02/09 01:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Tavares Offline
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Hey everyone, I would like to discuss some stuff about improvisation:

I'm learning autumn leaves over this chords: http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/uploads/20070805053413_bgp.pdf

Over the F#m7 (b9)- B7(b9)- Em I play something like this: The diminished scale of the 9th flat of F#m7 b9: Gb - Ab - A (or B bb)- B (Cb) - C (Dbb) - D (Ebb) - E (Fb)

I learned this approach on a DVD that other guy recommended me in another thread(http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1225763.html#Post1225763) and it gives me a great feel over the F#m, like a Scofield sound. I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I can tell you, once I play this (most of the times on the second or third chorus) my solos sounds so much deeper and agressive.

I wanted to share my experience with you and encourage you to try this scale over those chords, to me worked out really great.



Tavares Figurs
#1226192 - 07/02/09 02:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]  
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Stabby Offline
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Stabby  Offline
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Hi, I'm ready to join. I'm reading The Jazz Piano Book by Mark Levine and picking up a few things from it. Is it okay to ask stupid questions here? I don't know much about theory, I can look most things up in a theory book, but some things I can't find the answer too.

Some questions on 7th chords. Do they always contain 4 notes? Also I saw the E7 chord in my book, but I don't get it at all. There's an E, G, A and D in this chord. However E-D is a major 6th? I also saw a 7th chord with 2 A's, but that's an octave instead of a minor/major 7th?

#1226202 - 07/02/09 02:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]  
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jazzwee Offline
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jazzwee  Offline
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Hi Tavares, I think the scale options are mentioned somewhere in the thread (I know it's quite big).

I play F#m7b5 instead of F#m7b9 (for a true minor ii-V) in the regular changes. At least for F#m7b5, the scale choice for it is the Diminished-Whole tone scale which I believe is your scale so we're on track there. However, an F#m7(b9) would have a conflict with the Ab.

Glad to see you here!



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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1226205 - 07/02/09 02:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]  
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jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 7,203
So. California
Originally Posted by Stabby

Some questions on 7th chords. Do they always contain 4 notes? Also I saw the E7 chord in my book, but I don't get it at all. There's an E, G, A and D in this chord. However E-D is a major 6th? I also saw a 7th chord with 2 A's, but that's an octave instead of a minor/major 7th?


All questions are welcome Stabby and you are most welcome here.

If you go through the discussions on voicings slowly in this thread you will get to that on "Rootless Voicings".

Playing the 13th (which is the same as 6) is a common Jazzy sound on Dominants. The fullest jazzy sound is a root (from a bass player) plus 4 unique voices other than the root. But there are plenty of times when we play just 1/7 on the left hand and a 3 on the right hand. So that's the minimum. Usually we mix it up. Less voices when soloing. More when playing the Head (Melody)



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