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La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602662
01/28/07 04:17 AM
01/28/07 04:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 116
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drudged Offline OP
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Okay, I just started playing the La Campanella some time ago, and I seem to have gotten the hang of it. I thought I would be able to tackle through it with ease (Since I have a technique for all those jump)

However...something(s) made me pause

How on earth would I be able to nail those 32nd repeating notes and make them come out? I've tried the 4,3,2 approach, but I just can't get the key to come up fast enough for my finger to press on it again. I tried the 5,5,5 approach, and I sometimes get it, but sometimes I don't. I need some help or explain a technique which will nail the 32nd repeating notes.

Then, there are those painful 4,5 trills. When it comes to 1&2 trills, I can get it, thanks to the Waldstein. The 2&3 trills are my best, and the 3&4 trills are no problem. But when those 4&5 trills come, it's a different story. My hand just tires out and I can't raise my 4th and drop my 5th finger quick enough to perform a flawless trill. Which is the best way to train these two weak fingers (Please, don't say finger weights. I don't want to end up like Schumann) or recommend another etude to help me with this.

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

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Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602663
01/28/07 06:12 AM
01/28/07 06:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
New Jersey
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DrumProdigy83 Offline
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New Jersey
That's pretty neat - La Campanella and the Waldstein are both very intense pieces, very difficult! I can only play trills with 2 & 3... how did you develop your trills for 1 & 2, 3 & 4?? There is an exercise I read about that Liszt used to practice. You start with all your fingers pressing down on 5 sequential white notes (1-C, 2-D, 3-E, 4-F, 5-G). Keeping them pressed down (not too hard, just enough to hold the keys all the way down), lift your 1st finger 3 times then put it back down, then your 2nd finger 3 times and put it back down, and so on and so forth. Do not lift up the other fingers while you do this. The idea is to develop better finger independence, strength, eveness, and eventually speed. That's all I can think of, hope this helps! Good luck!

Edit - You should play each finger 3-5 times starting with your thumb and progressing towards the pinky, and back again, and again, and again. I just read this technique a day or two ago, so far it has been helping to relax my fingers and allow for better indepence of motion from each. I am hoping this too will help me develop my chops to play the trills in the Sonata Pathetique 1st movement by Beethoven...

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602664
01/28/07 08:18 AM
01/28/07 08:18 AM
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Vktmzkf932 Offline
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You see, I played La Campanella last year...
The reapeated 32ths may be as well be taken 5-3-2, but I still prefer 4-3-2 for my playing... and, have you ever wondered if the piano's mechanics isn't right... I mean because you'll never get them right if the piano simply can't do it!...
So... practise slowly the 32ths and try doing it only from fingers, without using your wrist.
As it comes to the 4&5 trill - I say, no big deal... Repeating it a lot should improve your 4&5 trill, and you might also want to consider a 3&5 fingering, instead of 4&5... I don't prefer it, I'm simply used to the 4&5, but a lot of performers take it that way.

Regards,
Liszt_BG

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602665
01/28/07 11:41 AM
01/28/07 11:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 133
Germany
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florhof Offline
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Germany
When it comes to very fast repeating notes I would always recommend to change the fingers. Actually I can't see a good alternative for 4-3-2 in La Campanella. When doing this keep the following in mind:

1. Play the three upper notes as if you would use three adjoint keys instead of only one. Just move your hand slightly from left to right and back to bring the fingers into the optimal position for their individual action.

2. Use a staccatissimo touch to give the key enough time for moving up after every single note.

3. Practice slowly - perhaps with a metronome -and give attention to the evenness of your movements.

When playing the 4-5 trill don't think of it as a trill but as an octave with three following notes. Anyhow you need a very good finger technique with independent finger actions. This is difficult to describe in a forum. Ask your teacher or watch videos with good pianists (if possible in slow motion).

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Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602666
01/28/07 05:48 PM
01/28/07 05:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
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phonehome Offline
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I just use 3,5 on the trills. It's a lot easier that way.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602667
01/31/07 05:01 AM
01/31/07 05:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 94
Brunei
MeLuvMusic Offline
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Brunei
Quote
Originally posted by Liszt_BG:
You see, I played La Campanella last year...
The reapeated 32ths may be as well be taken 5-3-2, but I still prefer 4-3-2 for my playing... and, have you ever wondered if the piano's mechanics isn't right... I mean because you'll never get them right if the piano simply can't do it!...
So... practise slowly the 32ths and try doing it only from fingers, without using your wrist.
As it comes to the 4&5 trill - I say, no big deal... Repeating it a lot should improve your 4&5 trill, and you might also want to consider a 3&5 fingering, instead of 4&5... I don't prefer it, I'm simply used to the 4&5, but a lot of performers take it that way.
I agree with Liszt_BG, it needs repetitive practice to build up resistance. I struggled with this part too. my hands wasn't as big as the ordinary men's hands. Its the matter of time and practice. The fingering I am using is 4&5, I can't make it with 3&5 cos there is a distance between my 3&5 fingers and playing trills with it is difficult for me that way. It depends on your own suitability and condition too. Use the way that is easier for you. smile


Currently working on:
1)Schubert Impromptu Op.90-2 and 3
2)Hungarian Rhapsody No.12
3)Etude Op.10-5 and 12
4)Libestraum No.3 and Un sospiro by Liszt
New:
Chopin Ballade No.4
Field's Nocturne No.4
Mozart Sonata in C, K330

"Without Music, Life is A Journey Through a desert" -- Pat Conroy
Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602668
01/31/07 12:58 PM
01/31/07 12:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 360
Rochester, NY
op30no3 Offline
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Posts: 360
Rochester, NY
I'm taking a break from playing this piece right now, in fact... On the note of the repeated notes, the way I do it is with the 4-3-2 fingering, I started very slow practice playing the notes very deliberately, and as it gest faster it becomes an action of pulling the fingers into your palm immediately -- before the key even comes up. Stay relaxed!
For the trill, I use the 4-5, though Busoni suggests 3-5, but my 1-3 stretch isn't big enough to make that comfortable. It helps me to focus on the D# with the thumb. If you focus on the trill too much, it is just too loud especially on a bright treble.
Another thing I try to do there is keep my fingers from coming off the keys when not playing the note so my right hand is barely moving at all.

You said you had a technique for the leaps? I'm curious because that is by far the hardest part for me... Could you share?


Help people. www.thehungersite.com
Go and click the button. That's it. Just do it.
Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602669
02/01/07 09:29 AM
02/01/07 09:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 116
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drudged Offline OP
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Well...Let's just say that my hand isn't that big, since I could only reach until the 10th (Or the 11th, if I will really force myself) but for the leaps...this is what I did:

1. Practice the lower note of the leap part with only the thumb. Take note of the place where your right arm is.

2. Practice the higher note of the leap part with only the pinky. Take note of the place where the right arm is.

3. Now, play the piece, except play it with the upper notes alone (Using the pinky of course) and another time with the lower notes alone.

4. After playing it a few times, combine. Take note that you don't stretch your hands that much, but it is your right arm which guides you.

5. Play those parts with this tempo: Grave, Lento, Adagio, Andante, Allegretto, Allegro Con Brio/Allegro Assai. Go slowly and advance one tempo up when you could play those leaps well in the given tempo. The Allegro Con Brio and Assai tempo is optional since it is there to ensure your maximum accuracy.

That was what I did for the leaps, as well as for the dreaded two-octave-leaps. Also, I found this helpful for the part where you will play the D# in three separate octaves and with that, I could play that part with greate ease, regardless of my hand size.

**BTW, for the three octave thing, I used a 5,2,1 fingering.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602670
02/02/07 04:48 AM
02/02/07 04:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
Z
zilla12345 Offline
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zilla12345  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
For the repeating 32nds in La Campanella, I would use 1-5-4-3 or 1-5-5-5. Whichever one you choose, you're going to have to slow it down and bring up the speed when it feels right. If your hand is getting tired or notes are dropping out, you are not ready to play it at that speed. Slow down so you hit every note and everything feels spectacular.

For the trill(s), 4-5 is obviously the fingering you want to use. Again, do it at a speed where everything feels fine and you are playing all the notes. Keep spending quality time with it and the speed will happen on its own. You get out of something what you put into it. Don't waste your time on etudes. La Campanella is one anyway.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602671
02/02/07 05:42 AM
02/02/07 05:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 94
Brunei
MeLuvMusic Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 94
Brunei
Yeah I Agree with zilla12345: Don't waste too much of your time on La Camp. I don't mean u to stop it ok. Just don't stress too much on this piece.

Your leaps advice is good. You can alternate the tempo. Maybe it will be more fun to practice that way. INstead of practicing the whole thing fast all the way which is very tiring smile


Currently working on:
1)Schubert Impromptu Op.90-2 and 3
2)Hungarian Rhapsody No.12
3)Etude Op.10-5 and 12
4)Libestraum No.3 and Un sospiro by Liszt
New:
Chopin Ballade No.4
Field's Nocturne No.4
Mozart Sonata in C, K330

"Without Music, Life is A Journey Through a desert" -- Pat Conroy
Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602672
02/03/07 10:26 AM
02/03/07 10:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
Z
zilla12345 Offline
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zilla12345  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
I want to make sure that I'm not misunderstood when I say "Don't waste your time on etudes." By this I mean things like Pischna, Moscheles, Hannon, or whatever... exercises that you only play for technical reasons and don't plan on performing. La Campanella is a wonderful, magical piece, of tremdendous value both musically and technically. The point I was trying to make was that the best way to learn La Campanella is to spend time on La Campanella, as opposed to various exercises.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602673
02/03/07 10:26 AM
02/03/07 10:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
Z
zilla12345 Offline
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zilla12345  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
*Hanon, sorry.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602674
05/01/07 02:17 AM
05/01/07 02:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 128
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soccer_daemon Offline
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soccer_daemon  Offline
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Posts: 128
Oh no, I am confronting the repeated 32nd notes
myself now on this. I think it may have been
related to my upright mechanical condition as the
reaction of the keys seem to be quite slow and
"sticky" in reaction even with very light stacc
touch.

There is no such symptom of slownes of stickiness
with the trill ... so I think I will try another
piano to get some verdict.

Does anyone have any good repeated notes exercise
that may be useful ? I am basically just
practising 432 repated in semi-tone scale up and
down 2 octaves as warm up and I can feel the
reaction of the keys are quite different among
them at higher speed. So I am assuming what I am
practicing is not just mindless stuff.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602675
05/01/07 06:09 AM
05/01/07 06:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 855
J
JBiegel Offline
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JBiegel  Offline
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Posts: 855
Leaps: simple to tackle--just make the leap double or triple in space--make it harder--for instance, if it's an octave-and-a-half separation, try two-octaves-and-a-half apart--it doesn't matter if it's not the written register for those notes. You'll think, psychologically, that after practicing the leaps wider apart, the written leaps will appear to be easier. I teach this tactic to my students at Brooklyn College quite often.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602676
05/01/07 09:10 AM
05/01/07 09:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 128
S
soccer_daemon Offline
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Posts: 128
Hi JBiegel, I have indeed tried similar method you
described b4 and it is quite effective for leap.

Do you have any other good advice for the 32nd
repeated notes and also the triplet section ?

Thanks

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602677
05/01/07 09:27 AM
05/01/07 09:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 855
J
JBiegel Offline
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JBiegel  Offline
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Sure--add extra notes to the repeated sections to make it harder--double up on each set--and then play as written--voila! Look how much easier it is as written!

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602678
05/01/07 09:32 AM
05/01/07 09:32 AM
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Posts: 128
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soccer_daemon Offline
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hahahaha 8-))) I like the reply! I will give that a
try.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602679
05/01/07 02:33 PM
05/01/07 02:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17
Southern California
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nappy Offline
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Southern California
I was never able to do the repeating notes well on my upright but on my teacher's grand I was ok. I guess the action makes a big difference. The friska section in Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2 really helped me with repeating notes in general.

I've never been able to do the 4-5 trill well. I do a 3-4 trill instead and although its a bit of a stretch for me it works well.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602680
05/01/07 09:00 PM
05/01/07 09:00 PM
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Posts: 3,918
Chicago, IL USA
Palindrome Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by drudged:
...(Please, don't say finger weights. I don't want to end up like Schumann)....
¿Dead? Sorry to have to break this to you, but someday.....


There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help #602681
05/02/07 04:27 PM
05/02/07 04:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13
London
S
SoftCandle Offline
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London
You do know that Liszt, Rachmaninoff, and Busoni - the three greatest piano virtuosi ever - all had enormous hands.

Re: La Campanella: 32nd Repeating notes + 4&5 trill help [Re: drudged] #1223848
06/28/09 04:10 AM
06/28/09 04:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6
Romania
K
kutibotond Offline
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kutibotond  Offline
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K

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6
Romania
Originally Posted by drudged
How on earth would I be able to nail those 32nd repeating notes and make them come out? I've tried the 4,3,2 approach, but I just can't get the key to come up fast enough for my finger to press on it again. I tried the 5,5,5 approach, and I sometimes get it, but sometimes I don't. I need some help or explain a technique which will nail the 32nd repeating notes.


hey i got a unique way of doing theme (in my way) its the most easy way for me atleast . it varies a bit but you'l get it . untill now no one those them like me laugh but i'll show you

so this is how you start :
1-3-5-4
1-3-5-4
1-3-5-3 (maybe it whould be better with 1-3-5-4)
1-4-3-5
1-4-3-5
1-3-5-4
1-3-5-3
1-4-3-5
1-3-5-3
1-3-5-4
1-3-5-4


I play piano on Twitch Live stream! Check it out! https://www.twitch.tv/kutibotond

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