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Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 #1217598
06/15/09 12:30 PM
06/15/09 12:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 33
Nimes France
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petex Offline OP
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Hello, recently there have been several posts about learning or practice partners, so let’s take it a step further.
I propose a study/ practice for the following piece : Chopin waltz op.69 no1.

Free sheet
http://www.score-on-line.com/tmp/81.251.38.96.CHO691.PDF

on you tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE9ant22c5o

midi file
http://www.gressus.se/chopin/midi/chopin.html


I consider myself as a beginner/improver and I think (hope) this is, with lots work, within my capabilities.
It is a beautiful piece ( have a listen on youtube) and I’d love to add it to my long-term repertoire..(doubling it!)

So is anyone interested in learning it with me………

Peter

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Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: petex] #1217617
06/15/09 01:05 PM
06/15/09 01:05 PM
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France
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landorrano Offline
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Sancte bovinus Peter, for a UMUTAB you are pretty ambitious!

Hey, wait a minute, I know what's up: you're really one of today's great pianists, escaping from fame and glory in the south of France, you know, Richard Clayderman, or somebody like that.

Now you're going to wow the entire Piano World with your hard work and humble progress!

Unmotivated, untalented MY EYE ! Sorry, your cover is blown!

No seriously, I hope that someone gets on board and that you make the progress that you are hoping for.

If you get this piece down, I'll send you a bottle of authentic Andorran champagne by Colissimo!

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: landorrano] #1217639
06/15/09 02:04 PM
06/15/09 02:04 PM
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New Jersey
mom3gram Offline
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Too advanced for me. Good luck with it.


mom3gram

ALFRED'S ADULT BOOK 1 GRADUATE
Faber Adult PA Bk. 1 Graduate
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Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: mom3gram] #1217928
06/16/09 06:19 AM
06/16/09 06:19 AM
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Wrenn Offline
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I'm going to give this a go. Im very much a beginner, 5 songs into Alfreds book 2. When I first looked at the sheet music I thought it didnt look bad, just a little bit harder than my may recital piece, but then I noticed the key has 4 flats and the 5lets and 13lets (if those are even words?!?).

I practice about 1.5 hours, 3-6 times a week so I will spend ~10 minutes on this peice each session and make it a long term project. I will set myself the initial goal of playing to bar 14, then moving it up to bar 31. If I ever manage to reach that far I guess I can look at more of the piece, but I suspect that will take a long time.

Just for a laugh, here is the first attempt I made tonight of the first 6 bars, after 30 minutes work.

http://www.coinmanipulation.com/misc/music/Day1.mp3

I found it quite hard (mainly the left hand) as I was mostly trying to sight read it, and with all those flats and tricky parts I think I'll have to memorize it before I can work on playing it better.

Quote
Too advanced for me. Good luck with it.


I was going to suggest that maybe you could simplify the piece, remove most of the left hand parts, but the right hand part is still pretty tricky given the key its in. Still, if you leave out all but the first note in each bar of the left hand it should still sound ok and I dont think it would be much harder than end of Alfreds book 1? Except for the key. Maybe something in C or a simpler key might have gotten more of the real beginners involved.

Last edited by Wrenn; 06/16/09 06:20 AM.
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Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Wrenn] #1217971
06/16/09 08:28 AM
06/16/09 08:28 AM
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Nimes France
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petex Offline OP
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Hi wren I am so pleased that you will join me in this little quest... listening to you sight read I think you will get there long before me!! Great effort I will take the rest of the week to replicate despite the suspicions of our Andorran friend!! Do they really make Champagne in Andorra? Is it drinkable?

I hope those 4 flats aren’t scaring the others off... once you remember that all the a,b,d and es are flat it's much less frightening...the tempo is slow so plenty of time to think ( and fluff in my case).
After the first 15 bars the whole thing is repeated almost exactly, so once the first 15bars are figured out, the first page is done!!

I'd like to be able to memorize it (I have a sieve for a brain!) how do you approach memorising a song?
Can anyone help me with the fingering for A flat major scale?


I also think of it as long term so there’s no pressure!!!

I added a link to the midi file so if anyone has an electric piano you can play one hand at time with midi playing the other…

I’ll try to be brave and record myself at the end of a week for the first 15 bars!! Maybe!!

Peter

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: landorrano] #1217974
06/16/09 08:32 AM
06/16/09 08:32 AM
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Nimes France
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petex Offline OP
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I think I’ve more chance of playing this that you have of finding some decent Andorran champagne!!!
Could you change the bet to something drinkable??

Peter (President of the UMUTAB)

Last edited by petex; 06/16/09 09:13 AM.
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: petex] #1217989
06/16/09 09:00 AM
06/16/09 09:00 AM
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North Carolina
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Peter - I was about to bump up your thread for a support group that managed to find it's way to page 2. Looks like you have found a piano buddy or two here. Glad it's working out for you. grin

Barb


A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: petex] #1218039
06/16/09 10:54 AM
06/16/09 10:54 AM
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landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted by petex
Do they really make Champagne in Andorra?


And scotch whiskey!

If we can sell it, we can make it!

Originally Posted by petex
I think I’ve more chance of playing this that you have of finding some decent Andorran champagne!!!
Could you change the bet to something drinkable??

Peter (President of the UMUTAB)


Who said anything about decent champagne ? Aren't we getting a bit French about this?

Well, I guess nothing's too good, for the President of the UMUTAB !

Originally Posted by petex

Can anyone help me with the fingering for A flat major scale?



It seems that I have time to save up some money for a real good bottle of champagne!

La bémol majeur RH 3-4-1-2-3-1-2-3
LH 3-2-1-4-3-2-1-3

Do it hands together, one octave, up and down, "à la noire", quarter notes, 1 1 1 1 ... again and again until you've got it. Nice and slow, easy does it, well seated, perfectly relaxed

Then two octaves, up and down, "à la croche", eighth notes, 1 2 1 2 1 2 ... again and again until ...

Then triplets "aux triolets" for three octaves, up and down, 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 ... until you can do it in your sleep.

Got it ?

That alone doesn't warrant a bottle of Andorran champagne. A glass of beer, well, maybe ... (drats, we don't make beer in Andorra)

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: landorrano] #1218049
06/16/09 11:15 AM
06/16/09 11:15 AM
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I finished off the Op. 69 No. 2 in B Minor sometime around the beginning of the year. It was a lot of fun.

At the moment, I am on summer break, so I may take you up on this offer. I'll start learning it in the next few days. We will see what happens.

See you out there!

-Matt

P.S.

Originally Posted by Wrenn
then I noticed the key has 4 flats and the 5lets and 13lets (if those are even words?!?)


I usually call them 5-tuples, 13-tuples, and in general, N-tuples, from my math experience. I don't know if anybody actually uses those terms though.

Last edited by Coolkid70; 06/16/09 11:27 AM.

Kawai K-3 (2008)
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: landorrano] #1218100
06/16/09 01:01 PM
06/16/09 01:01 PM
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Nimes France
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petex Offline OP
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I'll settle for a four pack of bank's original any day !! None of this posh Champagne !! better get saving!!
http://www.bankssbeer.co.uk/site/original.asp

I cn only thank god they don't make beer in Andorra !!

Thanks for the help
Peter

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: petex] #1218203
06/16/09 04:50 PM
06/16/09 04:50 PM
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Hi Peter,
Thanks so much for organizing this.
I am going to look it over tonight and hopefully get started on it soon.

smile


“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Kymber] #1218356
06/16/09 08:56 PM
06/16/09 08:56 PM
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Hi Peter,
I'm working on Op 69,No. 2. The pedelling in both of No. 1, and No.2 can be challenging. No. 2 is in B Minor, and changes to E Major in the middle, and then back to B Minor. Maybe when I finish No.2 I'll start No. 1 I would consider joining you now, except I working on No.2 with my teacher. I'll check it periodically. Hope you get a few more people on board. thumb
Dot


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Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: salzdt] #1218537
06/17/09 08:37 AM
06/17/09 08:37 AM
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Nimes France
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petex Offline OP
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Hi guys ..........
Well made a start last night with learning the fingering for A flat Maj ... still some work to be done there !
Next Start to work out a suitable fingering for the first 15 bars...if anyone has already done this then PLEASE stop me!!

I'll continue this evening

And Kymber ....N’y a pas de quoi !!

and for Dot... I looked at no2 as well, it is also a lovely piece...one for the future......

Peter...

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: petex] #1218561
06/17/09 09:37 AM
06/17/09 09:37 AM
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I had another small look at it tonight. Got the first 6 bars memorized and can play it through slowly. I started working out the fingering up to bar 15. I couldn't really play it all as the bar with the 5-tuplet wasn't working. Later I happened to be watching the youtube video again and noticed his fingering was way better than mine. I was trying 3-4-3-2-3 but the much better method I learnt form the video was 1-2-1-2-1. Of course, this didnt make it any easier for me, but at least I got the right fingering now ;_)

I might also do some work on playing the A flat Maj scale next time. I learnt from trying the bar with the 5-tuplet that my finger speed needs a little more work.

Also I think I might skip the grace notes in bars 7 and 12 just to simplify things at first.

Also, looking at the music more your right in that after the first 14 bars, its mostly repetition all the way to bar 32 (except for the nasty 13-tuplet bar!!) so that is promising ;-)

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Wrenn] #1218574
06/17/09 09:59 AM
06/17/09 09:59 AM
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Peter,
I'll be checking in to see everyone's progress. It is also one of Chopin's beautiful works. I'll keep working on No.2 If you ever start to work on it, I'll be able to help out. thumb
Dot


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Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: salzdt] #1219140
06/18/09 12:05 PM
06/18/09 12:05 PM
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Was just going to practice 15 minutes again tonight but I was having fun so kept going! I have up to bar 15 memorized now and can play it all the way through but the second half is even slower than the first! The chords in the left hand change from the first half which throws me off. Need more practice. And bar 11 is really going to take a long time.

I had two questions:

1) In the second beat of bar 15 the left hand plays a chord with a d flat, while the right hand plays the same d but natural. This sounds really bad and I must be missing something here. I always assumed that an accidental only applied to the clef it was in, so the natural in the treble clef doesn't apply to the bass clef. Maybe that's wrong though.

2) I was thinking, to make it easier, that in bars 10 and 12 I'd just play the same chords from the first section to make it easier to learn initially. Is playing a simpler version of the music to learn it faster going to make things worse in the long run?

Hope everyone else is making progress.

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 n [Re: Wrenn] #1219582
06/19/09 10:50 AM
06/19/09 10:50 AM
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Amazing what a few giddy flourishes on a Chopin score do to weak-kneed hopefuls.

But, of the 128 LENTO measures of the Chopin Waltz in Ab Opus 69-1
close analysis shows that MASTERING 40 measures
( one of 16 measures and three of 8 measures) ... with SO MANY REPEATS
Petex will be able to play the dream waltz in next to no time.
(from the ABRSM Edition)
m1-16 ... Main Theme
m33-40 ... con anima
m65-74 ... dolce
m97-104 ... poco a poco cresc

Get the opening 16 measures under the fingers and you’re nearly half-way there.

[Linked Image]

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 n [Re: Wrenn] #1219630
06/19/09 12:31 PM
06/19/09 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrenn
Was just going to practice 15 minutes again tonight but I was having fun so kept going! I have up to bar 15 memorized now and can play it all the way through but the second half is even slower than the first! The chords in the left hand change from the first half which throws me off. Need more practice. And bar 11 is really going to take a long time.

I had two questions:

1) In the second beat of bar 15 the left hand plays a chord with a d flat, while the right hand plays the same d but natural. This sounds really bad and I must be missing something here. I always assumed that an accidental only applied to the clef it was in, so the natural in the treble clef doesn't apply to the bass clef. Maybe that's wrong though.

2) I was thinking, to make it easier, that in bars 10 and 12 I'd just play the same chords from the first section to make it easier to learn initially. Is playing a simpler version of the music to learn it faster going to make things worse in the long run?

Hope everyone else is making progress.


1) You're not missing anything. The dissonance is supposed to be expressive.

2) I personally wouldn't "simplify" the measure at all. You eventually have to learn it correctly anyway, so you might as well do it the first time.

It might help for you to look at this piece in terms of phrases, and not beat by beat or bar by bar. Think about measure 11-12 as one phrase and try to figure out what that should be; learn the right hand separately if necessary. Then, it will be much easier to put everything together.

Good luck!


Kawai K-3 (2008)
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 n [Re: Coolkid70] #1219932
06/20/09 02:39 AM
06/20/09 02:39 AM
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Chopin Waltz Opus 69-1 (Posthumous) - 2nd beat of 15th measure

As raised by Wrenn ... the RH "bad" note D natural jangles with the Db in the LH ... and defended by California-based CoolKid "the dissonance is supposed to be expressive" needs investigating for 2 good reasons:

1. On his deathbed Chopin asked for all his unpublished works to be destroyed ... FC was fussy about the quality of his works ... and called on his best friend and trustee to carry out his wishes ... who was it who then dug up the "Posthumous" work?
2. The bad note D natural in question is the "verboten" TRITONE
(‘tween subdominant and dominant on the Ab major scale ...
Ab, Bb, C, Db {D), Eb, F, G, Ab)

Nobody in their right mind sounds the jangling two notes ... D natural and Db ... with any assurance (we like CoolKid’s distancing remark of "SUPPOSED to be expressive") ...
is there a possibility that the D natural is IN ERROR?

But perhaps this is a point for discussion by those at the top of the musical tree.

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: petex] #1220130
06/20/09 03:19 PM
06/20/09 03:19 PM
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Dear Friends,
This is a great idea...But; I got a copy of the music and listened to a recording and it's just too hard for me at this time. Maybe next year.
Daniel

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Daniel J] #1220191
06/20/09 05:21 PM
06/20/09 05:21 PM
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To tell you the truth, the diminished unison (Db and D) didn't really bother me at all. Maybe this a side effect of listening to large quantities of atonal music.


Kawai K-3 (2008)
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Coolkid70] #1220382
06/21/09 03:20 AM
06/21/09 03:20 AM
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Pretoria South Africa
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Chopin Waltz Opus 69-1 (Posthumous) - 2nd beat of 15th measure

My apologies for the bum steer chaps ... trying to be too clever ... and falling into the trap of treating the 15th measure in isolation and not in context ... and mistakenly focussing on the jangling effect of the tritone D natural/Db WHEN PLAYED TOO LOUD
(when the waltz is clearly marked " p con espressione") .

Imagine even trying to improve the Chopin score (but then who can?) by dropping the Db from the mix ... but having the distinct feeling of a bad cook having missed out on the spice.

Regarding flying a kite about the "Posthumous" marking ... one can rest assured that the Warsaw musical fraternity will have thoroughly vetted the 69-1 Waltz ... play it straight.

Meanwhile ... back at the ranch.

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 n [Re: Wrenn] #1220447
06/21/09 09:56 AM
06/21/09 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenn


1) In the second beat of bar 15 the left hand plays a chord with a d flat, while the right hand plays the same d but natural. This sounds really bad and I must be missing something here. I always assumed that an accidental only applied to the clef it was in, so the natural in the treble clef doesn't apply to the bass clef. Maybe that's wrong though.

2) I was thinking, to make it easier, that in bars 10 and 12 I'd just play the same chords from the first section to make it easier to learn initially. Is playing a simpler version of the music to learn it faster going to make things worse in the long run?



I've been playing this piece for some time now (I'm still trying to get a decent recording of it) and I will add... the dflat and d-natural together sound just fine once you play it smoothly. In fact after reading the question I had to go to the piano and play the measure to see why I had not noticed the dissonance. Just chalk it up to the "genius of Chopin"... smile

I would not go to an "easier" version of the piece. In my mind it's better to play the original version not perfectly but with heart than to play a simplified version well.


"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 n [Re: Peyton] #1220839
06/22/09 02:41 AM
06/22/09 02:41 AM
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Top marks Peyton ...
"In my mind it's better to play the original version not perfectly but with heart ... than to play a simplified version well."

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Daniel J] #1221005
06/22/09 12:51 PM
06/22/09 12:51 PM
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Hi All,
I decided I am going to work on a song I've been wanting to learn for a while. I made some great progress on it last night and am about 2/3 of the way done.

So, maybe I will tag along for the next song smile

I think, at least as far as all the dynamic markings are concerned, the Chopin piece is a bit out of reach for me at the moment.

If anyone else who found the piece to difficult wants to recommend something a little easier I'd be up for that.


“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Kymber] #1221412
06/23/09 05:47 AM
06/23/09 05:47 AM
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Wrenn Offline
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I got in some decent practice this week. I can play the first 16 bars. I think during the week I progressed from really horrible to fairly horrible, so thats an improvement!!

Here is my recording from tonight:
http://www.coinmanipulation.com/misc/music/Day7a.mp3

I think from now I will stop learning more of the music and focus on learning to play this first section a bit better. Tons of areas for me to work on just in this small section.

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: Wrenn] #1221435
06/23/09 08:27 AM
06/23/09 08:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
Pretoria South Africa
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member
btb  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
Pretoria South Africa
Way-to-go Wrenn,
Your rendition is decidedly recognizable ... the rippling triplets need special attention as they provide the kick-start magic (almost like a "turn") to the 8th-note phrasing ... start with the first two measures of the 16m Main theme ... and once having captured the charming Lento rhythm, you will find that the brain will want to fast-forward for the remainder.

Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: btb] #1222071
06/24/09 10:21 AM
06/24/09 10:21 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4
PianoInApocket Offline
Junior Member
PianoInApocket  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4
I started learning Op.69 No.1 literally few minutes ago. Got done with the first bars. At least the start doesn`t look that difficult. Besides, which grade is this piece considered?


Currently working on :

Chopin - Nocturne Op.9 No.2

Michael Nyman - The heart asks pleasure first

Scott Joplin - Bethena, a concert Waltz

Ace of Base - Beautiful Life

Chopin - Op.69 No.1
Re: Study group beginners/int Chopin waltz op.69 no1 [Re: PianoInApocket] #1223197
06/26/09 03:53 PM
06/26/09 03:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 65
USA
C
caracantabile Offline
Full Member
caracantabile  Offline
Full Member
C

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 65
USA
I'm game to try it smile I have to finish memorizing and polishing a sonatina for class though, so it will take me a while.


- C.C. -
"It is dreadful when something weighs on your mind, not to have a soul to unburden yourself to. You know what I mean. I tell my piano the things I used to tell you." - Chopin

Currently memorizing for class: Debussy Prelude #8

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