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Just trying to get my daily laugh.

Steven, further replys are pointless, since it's obvious that kbk deals with his daily problems by "arguing" with other members on this board. When he runs out of "arguments", he stops replying or writes something childish like in his upper posts. It has happen a million times before.

While we can't deny that kbk knows a great deal about piano, and that he offered good advices to many members, including myself, it's also the truth that he needs help, because he can't deal with problems.

No offense.

Laughter is a good therapy, but you need a doctor.

None taken! Maybe you're right - it's a cry for help! (strange place to do it in)

I'm sure I will be ignored, but my take: this is a typical forum discussion with an incredible amount of assuming and very little information.

With what I've read here I know nothing about ClassicalMan's weaknesses or strengths, and I have no way to judge the effectiveness of his teacher.

I see a lot of generalizing and projection—and posturing.

Your post is not to be ignored at all, Gary. Classical man, in response to your original post: I think I can relate a bit to what you are asking us: "what do you think" of dropping lessons and going it alone. I believe this to be a gut feeling thing that we each answer accurately for ourselves. I have not taken regularly scheduled lessons for many years and actually teach beginners to play. I can learn new material on my own. When road blocks come up, I take an occasional lesson for support from a master teacher. It's a personal thing.

I stand corrected. I was going to say a million to one, but thought that might be interpreted as hyperbole, so said a thousand to one.

Your second point, yes. It's truly a case of blind leading the blind, and I'm guessing it's fairly prevalent. However, to be fair to the teacher, it could be that constructive, but critical comments are not well received, so are not offered.

Except for sotto voce's reply, this is the best reply I have received on the this thread. That's my goal: to learn on my own! He's gotten me to that point. I can always look up symbols and signs, terms, etc. I have forgotten in a reference book or even right here on the net. Short of that I can listen to recordings of the piece on youtube or purchase .99 mp3 recordings. I think I'll say my teacher, I need a little break right now and I'll be in touch. If he says, well I'm only available for regular lessons then, its bye bye!

So true!

Clearly there's a business model here that transcends what would otherwise appear to be mere arrogance: teachers have an obvious financial incentive to promote and perpetuate the idea that self-teaching is bad.

Given that lazy or incompetent teachers are admittedly "fairly prevalent," I wonder what the odds are that students who've had years of instruction from such teachers will also have "technique problems of major magnitude."

Even if studying with a teacher were always unequivocally beneficial, pulling patently absurd statistics out of thin air (like, for instance, there's a million-to-one chance of a self-learner learning correctly) creates suspicion, not credibility. kbk's rude remark about "crying all the way to the bank" confirms that teachers' and students' interests here aren't necessarily congruent.

Steven

Steven,

Perspective is crucial, and we don't have any.

We don't know how well ClassicalMan plays. We don't know how well his teacher plays or teaches.

All sorts of assumptions are being made, and it simply assures we will have yet another long, pointless forum discussion.

No, Steven, just plain observation over decades, which includes watching both students and teachers playing.

That's probably why airline pilots have flight checks (rather critical, I'd say), why other professions have proficiency testing, etc., and why teachers undertake continuing education.

Even concert artists develop habits which they may not be aware of. It's rather humbling, because I've done it myself. And not too long ago, I watched a concert pianist take a master class and be gently corrected on a number of important, although small, technique matters.

If those of us who are trained can succumb to bad habits, why would you suppose that those who are not trained could magically not develop them?

My take on the OP is that he's already decided what he wants to do, and that's to stop lessons, save the money, and self-teach. I don't suppose he was expecting all of the teachers here to say "what a great idea!" - in fact, I kind of wonder why he asked our opinion at all. Be that as it may, it's up to him, and depends what his goals are. We don't know really what his teacher is like, we don't know how well he plays - I've read some of his questions on the Pianists' Corner and wondered why he didn't ask his teacher, but maybe he did, and was just getting extra opinions. I personally would recommend a good teacher, but the bottom line is what do you want to achieve?

Even though there are aspects of technique that everyone can agree are bad, in many other cases it's not so clear cut. There's no single pedagogical approach to piano, after all, or to the techniques that cumulatively comprise the skill set needed to play well.

Likewise, any given musician's technique can be expected to be idiosyncratic to some degree in the same way that every speaker of a language speaks his or her own idiolect. How many teachers would have presumed to correct Horowitz's flat fingers because, well, it's just "wrong"? How many today would tell Lisitsa to stop all that lost motion in her wrists because it's unnecessary, or would tell Lang Lang just to sit still and stop making faces?

One of the strongest recollections I have of piano lessons in my youth was that each successive teacher sought to undo various things that had become ingrained from the previous one, with the adamant and authoritative certainty that his or her way was the best way instead. One teacher believes in finger action, the next one believes in arm weight, one wants pliable wrists, the next one wants them rigid. There's not even agreement on bench height or placement, and it's easy to suspect there are no objective criteria for any aspect of playing.

Everyone who becomes proficient evolves, to some extent and in an organic way, an individual technique. If one reads well, plays with facility to one's own satisfaction, makes consistent progress toward meeting one's goals and never experiences pain or injury, who exactly gets to decide that there are "bad habits" that need correcting? Would it not be true that at any given master class, the same pianist might be judged to have different technical problems depending on who is giving the class and doing the evaluating?

Like it or not, plenty of self-learners do just fine. I would never try to persuade anyone that they should or should not have a teacher, because I don't believe in doctrinaire, one-size-fits-all answers. Some (if not most) people need teachers, and the lucky ones find good teachers. Others don't need teachers, or don't need a teacher any longer. Surely a bad teacher—and they are "fairly prevalent," after all—can be worse than no teacher.

This discussion has gone far beyond the scope of the OP's concern here. Maybe it should have been obvious that he wasn't going to get a unanimous pat on the back for choosing to learn on his own, but he shouldn't be treated with dogmatic dismissiveness either. Any teacher who seriously thinks that self-learners have a million-to-one chance of getting it right needs to get out more, and it's not necessary to travel far: just go next door to the Adult Beginners Forum.

Does anybody agree with Ed Weiss that a "good teacher's job should be to get you to learn on your own," or is that complete and unimaginable heresy?

Steven

I agree with it! Now, here's another question. How long must one study until the golden seal of approval is bestowed upon the student?

5 years? 10 or more? There will ALWAYS be room for improvement. And that's a fact. Plus, it really is up to the student. We're not talking about an 8 year old here. This is a mature adult who probably just wants to play for pleasure.

Bottom line ... unless he wants to be a performing classical pianist, he can discover technique on his own.

Gary's point is right on. In specific, we know nothing at all about this individual and his playing.

My point, that when in Rome, and you meet an Italian, chances are good he's Roman Catholic, is a generalization which one could place a confident wager. I've met hundreds, if not more, self-taught, or who had limited teacher training, piano players who barely play above an early intermediate level, and have atrocious technique. Is it fair to generalize? Well, if you ask a general question, you'll probably get a general answer.

As several point out, each and every time this topic rears its head, why ask teachers what they think if you don't want to know their answer?

My suspicion is that we're talking orders of magnitude differences in meanings of words such as "technique, just fine, etc."

Belated recognition that we know nothing about the OP did not, unfortunately, preempt dismissive generalizations that continue to be defended, even if the statistical sample has now shrunk from millions to thousands to hundreds.

And if "we're talking orders of magnitude differences in meanings of words such as 'technique, just fine, etc.,'" that applies as much to teachers and teaching skill as to pianists and playing ability.

Steven

ClassicMan, if your decision had been that cut and dry, you would not have come to the teacher forum to discuss it. It's also doubtful that you simply wanted a pat of approval or reassurance. Is there a half formed question behind your question, something you are wondering about? I have no idea if what I have just written has any rhyme or reason.

I think you should spend the next 6 weeks learning something on your own; say, a new Chopin waltz or Haydn sonata.

If you're able to manage it on your own and achieve a satisfactory result, then go it on your own.

If you find yourself having trouble and needing help, then stay with the teacher.

Ok, since there have been suppositions and guesses concerning my ability, here's a list of what I was unable to do two years ago. Prior to that time, although well versed in theory my playing/reading was limited to church hymns and basic one note melodies. In other words, application of the rudiments of music was quite challenging, a hurdle which I now have overcome. I have played the following pieces, Fur Elise-complete version, Prelude in E minor Op. 28. No. 4 Fredrick Chopin, Waltz in C-sharp minor Op. 64, No. 2 Fredrick Chopin, Fugue 2 in C minor Johann Sebastian Bach Fuga 2, Ave Maria solo piano, and Handel's Hallelujah Chorus (read this and committed to memory), all of which are posted at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=musickologist&aq=f

I have also learned Mozart's Alla Turca, not posted. My many years of playing has been accompanying vocalists, choirs, and soloists in pop and improvised styles which did not require much reading.