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Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? #1217129
06/14/09 08:24 AM
06/14/09 08:24 AM
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Stevester Offline OP
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I have started my piano search in earnest and I need some pricing help.

I found a new Yamaha C3 which I like and I am trying to determine a fair price, any help is greatly appreciated.

What kind of prices have you been seeing for a new one? Private messages are fine.

Many thanks,
Steve


Last edited by Stevester; 06/14/09 09:44 AM.

"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Stevester] #1217219
06/14/09 02:33 PM
06/14/09 02:33 PM
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Marty Flinn Offline
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Current Yamaha MSRP is $46,999. Traditional discounting often runs 20-30% off of actual list. Distressed situations can go deeper.


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Marty Flinn] #1217266
06/14/09 04:47 PM
06/14/09 04:47 PM
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I would aim for 40-45% off the MSRP.


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pno] #1217335
06/14/09 08:45 PM
06/14/09 08:45 PM
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Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
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Hmmm...

One might be able to get a much better rated piano for the same money.

That's what I'm thinking. wink


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Rich Galassini] #1217340
06/14/09 09:00 PM
06/14/09 09:00 PM
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Danville, California
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Furtwangler Online content
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Let's see........

$46,999 less a 30% discount = $32,899

Now take 25% off of that figure.......

Just messing around with some math.


Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Furtwangler] #1217350
06/14/09 09:26 PM
06/14/09 09:26 PM
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= $24,674

smile


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pno] #1217352
06/14/09 09:32 PM
06/14/09 09:32 PM
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Hi Rich,

What did you have in mind?

John


Bohemia Concerto 132
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Rich Galassini] #1217353
06/14/09 09:33 PM
06/14/09 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini

One might be able to get a much better rated piano for the same money.


Stevester, Rich is going to sell you a 6 foot Bosendorfer at $24,674. Call him now!


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pno] #1217399
06/14/09 11:43 PM
06/14/09 11:43 PM
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Stevester -- In the midst of all the noise and sarcasm, Rich is offering you solid advice (even if you were able to achieve a 50% discount from the MSRP of $47K). Think Estonia 190 or, for a few dollars more, Mason & Hamlin A. If all you can achieve is a 30% discount, think Mason & Hamlin AA.


Mason & Hamlin A (2006); Yamaha P140
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Deerwood Dad] #1217438
06/15/09 02:01 AM
06/15/09 02:01 AM
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AJF Offline
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Some good suggestions. I just purchased a Shigeru Kawai Sk-2 for significantly less than $47000 (less than $30k actually) and although taste is ultimately subjective it would be very difficult to argue against the opinion that the Shigeru is a far superior instrument to the Yamaha C3.

Last edited by AJF; 06/15/09 02:02 AM.


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Deerwood Dad] #1217523
06/15/09 09:59 AM
06/15/09 09:59 AM
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torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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Originally Posted by Deerwood Dad
Stevester -- In the midst of all the noise and sarcasm, Rich is offering you solid advice


Not really. Rich is just using his teflon raincoat to mess with Yamaha again, and this time Furtwangler's come along for the ride. grin

Deerwood,

As scandalous as it might seem, there are those who prefer the total Yamaha C package to that of the Mason or the Estonia. What Mason and Estonia fans might knock as bright and thin, Yamaha fans would describe as fundamental clarity. What Mason and Estonia fans might lovingly describe as thick and full, Yamaha fans might refer to as bloated and muddy.

I have no idea of Stevester's taste, but I know that Yamaha has sold a few C series over the years. wink


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: AJF] #1217524
06/15/09 09:59 AM
06/15/09 09:59 AM
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Stevester Offline OP
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I know Rich well, if all goes according to plan I will be visiting him on Thursday. I already promised him I would stop by before buying anything.

I certainly appreciate all of the input and I would be most grateful for additional information. PW is a gold mine of great information.

Regards to the list.

Steve





"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Stevester] #1217529
06/15/09 10:21 AM
06/15/09 10:21 AM
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"Not really. Rich is just using his teflon raincoat to mess with Yamaha again, and this time Furtwangler's come along for the ride."

Hey - I ain't goin' for no ride with no stranger wearin' no raincoat! My mama didn't raise no fool.


Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Furtwangler] #1217540
06/15/09 10:41 AM
06/15/09 10:41 AM
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"Hey - I ain't goin' for no ride with no stranger wearin' no raincoat! My mama didn't raise no fool."

grin grin

You're in great form for 7:30 on a Monday morning!


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: AJF] #1217580
06/15/09 11:35 AM
06/15/09 11:35 AM
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Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Rich is not alone.

Many people today discover pianos that "rate higher" for themselves than Yamaha - for same or even less money.

This is not to disrespect Yamaha which has undoubtfully still one of the largest names in the industry.

In fact, it serves other makers well that Yamaha which of course does make excellent pianos, wishes to continously remain on the higher end price scale.

But this can and perhaps also will be its nemesis.

Fact is, that in the midst of so many new develpments and improvements by several makers in the industry you cannot simply stand in the market place and pretend times are as they once were.

It's a fierce race out there and value-packed products for consumers are becomong the norm rather than the exception for most shoppers in today's market.

In fact a recent poster here glowingly reported about his Steinway budget shopping.

Even top makers such as Steingraeber come regularly up with new designs and ideas such as tha Aliquot system or carbon-fibere soundboards.

If prices go up - so must quality or at least comparative value.

In the absence of that, you live on borrowed time.

Times have never been better for shoppers than today.

Norbert




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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Rich Galassini] #1217635
06/15/09 01:56 PM
06/15/09 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Hmmm...

One might be able to get a much better rated piano for the same money.

That's what I'm thinking. wink
Gulp....Everyone knows and can't dispute the precision and quality of the Japanese pianos,especially Yamaha. Upon glancing at my most recent Ancott book which lists all the MSRP yearly for all the various piano manufacturers, the retail price of the C3 increased near 50%.This USUALLY increases the wholesale price accordingly. If Marty's figures are accurate,which of course they are. I think....that is partially what Rich was elluding to. grin

Last edited by pianobroker; 06/15/09 01:57 PM.

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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pianobroker] #1217690
06/15/09 03:23 PM
06/15/09 03:23 PM
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Stevester Offline OP
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pianobroker,

That is what worries me and that is why I started this thread, I am not sure what is going on. I look at this as a solid piano with a good track record but I am not sure about current pricing. Everything has to be kept in proper perspective. If Yamaha is going to hold to a major price increase and dealers are going to follow suit then customers such as myself are going to have to look at other options, this piano may be out of my price range when just a few years ago it would have been an easy decision.






"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pianobroker] #1217744
06/15/09 05:58 PM
06/15/09 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pianobroker
Upon glancing at my most recent Ancott book which lists all the MSRP yearly for all the various piano manufacturers, the retail price of the C3 increased near 50%.


In one year? How could that be??

The Fine MSRP only increased by 6% between the 2007-08 and 2008-09 editions..

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/15/09 06:04 PM.
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pianoloverus] #1217758
06/15/09 06:41 PM
06/15/09 06:41 PM
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I think what he is referring to is a phenomenon that I witnessed myself. I used to visit my local Yamaha dealer and the posted MSRP for a C3 was always around the $34k area. Then, all of a sudden I noticed that the MSRP had jumped into the $40k's - like $42k or $44k or something.

I remember thinking to myself "Geez, did Yamaha take that big a price increase or is this guy just inflating the MSRP to make the discount look larger?"

I was aware that the "Street" price had remained about the same, however. So, no matter the MSRP - it is the actual price the consumer pays that is relevant, and that is best determined and negotiated by comparing prices among dealers, I think. Lord knows there are enough Yamaha dealers in most metro areas to be able to do that - at least there are around here - 3 different ones within 20 minutes' drive.





Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Furtwangler] #1217773
06/15/09 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Furtwangler
I think what he is referring to is a phenomenon that I witnessed myself. I used to visit my local Yamaha dealer and the posted MSRP for a C3 was always around the $34k area. Then, all of a sudden I noticed that the MSRP had jumped into the $40k's - like $42k or $44k or something.


But even an increase from 34K to 44K would be less than 30%. To get a 50% increase the MSRP would have to be 51K.

Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Furtwangler] #1217777
06/15/09 07:55 PM
06/15/09 07:55 PM
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Sorry, not in one year! In 2006, a high gloss ebony C3 was $31,390 retail.Most of the better pianos increase as for retail yearly, I was just a bit surprised at the $ jump in 2 years. shocked


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pianoloverus] #1217866
06/16/09 01:19 AM
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In my observation and personal opinion some manufacturers tend to announce sudden and steep price increases simply as a sign of self-appointed confidence in their line in the hope of consumers following suit.

For example Petrof has done same a while back with doubtful results.

If this is the right way to go in the middle of the current recession remains to be seen.

In my opinion [and own observation...] those who are able and willing to forego unwarranted or unnessesary price increases in recognition of a currently tough market still being able to add quality to their product, will be ahead.

I believe current sales figures are in support of reflecting this trend helping to shape a market increasingly different from the past.

Norbert


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Norbert] #1217936
06/16/09 06:53 AM
06/16/09 06:53 AM
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I'm not here to support Yamaha's large price increases, as, in my view, they are certainly over the top. However, Yamaha have, rightly so, earned their reputation for incredible reliability, consistency and build quality, which almost every other manufacturer envies.

Even with their price increases, the Yamaha C series grands and their U series uprights, (specifically, as their budget range is now not so competitive), still represent excellent value for money when compared against all other makes. And they know it.


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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: ChrisVenables] #1217981
06/16/09 08:44 AM
06/16/09 08:44 AM
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I am just visiting this thread again for the first time since my last post on it.

Turandot, while your perspective is refreshing and needed here on PW, I did not intend to knock Yamaha product even a little bit. The C3 is a dependable piano. It is a pleasant piano to play. I have sold many of them over the years. I see how they age. I see the problems they traditionally have and I see their strengths.

But there are reasons why the C3 became popular in the first place. It was never made to be an equal with the finer handbuilt pianos. I was a church musician while in college and I actually helped a church choose one in the 1980's. The presentation then all revolved around "bang for the buck". They certainly had it at the time. The church was quite happy with the choice.

In the 1980s the yen against the dollar made it a CHEAP piano for what it was. Today it is not a cheap piano and customers are now able to compare it at the same price with low production, handbuilt brands that use techniques and materials that Yamaha does not touch until you get into their S series.

My thoughts,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
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Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Rich Galassini] #1218080
06/16/09 12:32 PM
06/16/09 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
I am just visiting this thread again for the first time since my last post on it.

Turandot, while your perspective is refreshing and needed here on PW, I did not intend to knock Yamaha product even a little bit. The C3 is a dependable piano. It is a pleasant piano to play. I have sold many of them over the years. I see how they age. I see the problems they traditionally have and I see their strengths.

But there are reasons why the C3 became popular in the first place. It was never made to be an equal with the finer handbuilt pianos. I was a church musician while in college and I actually helped a church choose one in the 1980's. The presentation then all revolved around "bang for the buck". They certainly had it at the time. The church was quite happy with the choice.

In the 1980s the yen against the dollar made it a CHEAP piano for what it was. Today it is not a cheap piano and customers are now able to compare it at the same price with low production, handbuilt brands that use techniques and materials that Yamaha does not touch until you get into their S series.

My thoughts,


Rich,

Here are my thoughts.

Historical context has nothing to do with Stevester's question. How you presented Yamahas to your customers in the eighties has nothing to do with the question. The decreased value of the dollar against the yen has been matched by the decreased value of the dollar against the Euro. Neither has anything to do with the question posed. Labor costs have increased in Europe and Asia. Again, this has no bearing on the question.

IMO Yamaha's intent is not to provide a cheap bang-for-the-buck piano, and certainly NOT to copy "low production, handbuilt brands that use techniques and materials that Yamaha does not touch". However, whatever Yamaha's intent is, it's not related to the question.

You took a jab at Yamaha in your earlier post. You took another here. No big deal. People can read.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: turandot] #1218113
06/16/09 01:33 PM
06/16/09 01:33 PM
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The company I work for is one of the largest new Yamaha retailers in the country. The MSRP we post on every piano is just that, the Yamaha MSRP. The damn prices are high enough without a dealer jacking them up higher in an artificial manner.

The comment was made that the street prices remained the same. Larger dealers may have back up stock on their warehouse as the old wholesale. This may support status quo street pricing until these units are sold through. "Street prices" have a tendancy to "linger" in the minds of shoppers and be spread around by certain ethnic groups.

The myth of a new Yamaha U1 at $5k is just that with current wholesale prices. New Yamaha C3s at under $25k are long gone as well.

It is difficult for retailers who must respond to a material wholesale increase to turn this big ship of market expectation in the direction of new higher pricing. Frequently the retailer bites the big bullet of materially lower margins for a time until this can be accomplished.

For a manufacturer's line to grow and prosper it must be in demand and yet must also be profitable for retail dealers. Unprofitable products are shunted to the back corner, and not reordered when sold.

Manufacturers and distributors are pushing the elasticity of the piano market place in what some have labeled "desparate times." Only time will tell if these moves were correct and sustainable. Sadly, in my 35+ year experience in the business I have never seen material wholesale price reductions. Piano prices historically have had to wait until the economy rised again to a stasis level before the next hike.


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: pianoloverus] #1218148
06/16/09 03:00 PM
06/16/09 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by pianobroker
Upon glancing at my most recent Ancott book which lists all the MSRP yearly for all the various piano manufacturers, the retail price of the C3 increased near 50%.


In one year? How could that be??

The Fine MSRP only increased by 6% between the 2007-08 and 2008-09 editions..


In normal times, we would be seeing massive inflation in the US with what the Fed is doing, but right now we are suffering stagflation. Yamaha Japan is less raising prices but more hedging against the weakening dollar.

Chinese manufacturers have the advantage since the Chinese Yuen is pegged to the US dollar with small amount of float unlike the Japanese Yen.

Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Classical Echo] #1218223
06/16/09 05:14 PM
06/16/09 05:14 PM
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I am surprised "one of the largest new Yamaha retailers in the country" does not hedge their foreign exchange currencies.

On the other hand, aren't higher Yen/Yuan what American politicians always ask for?

I wonder what would happen when the Chinese Yuan floats.


♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Classical Echo] #1218225
06/16/09 05:17 PM
06/16/09 05:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Marty Flinn  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
The last Ancott Associates guide was for Fall/Winter 2006-2007. Ancott prices were not actual manufacturer MSRP prices but were often close. New Yamaha C3PE in that guide was $32,190. Current Yamaha MSRP is $46,999. This would be about a 46% rise in close to three years.


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
Re: Fair Price For New Yamaha C3 ?? [Re: Marty Flinn] #1218274
06/16/09 06:08 PM
06/16/09 06:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Marty Flinn

It is difficult for retailers who must respond to a material wholesale increase to turn this big ship of market expectation in the direction of new higher pricing. Frequently the retailer bites the big bullet of materially lower margins for a time until this can be accomplished.

For a manufacturer's line to grow and prosper it must be in demand and yet must also be profitable for retail dealers. Unprofitable products are shunted to the back corner, and not reordered when sold.

Manufacturers and distributors are pushing the elasticity of the piano market place in what some have labeled "desparate times." Only time will tell if these moves were correct and sustainable.


Props to Marty for telling it like it is. (But a caution about the ethnic stereotyping in the same post)


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