|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
77 members (beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, accordeur, Animisha, Anglagard44, 13 invisible),
1,935
guests, and
463
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977
500 Post Club Member
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977 |
I tried a search as this must be very old ground, but no luck..This is recommended in "Playing the Piano for Pleasure," a little gem of a book suggested by a forum member.
I need technical help. Is this a book a good place to start?
Many advance thanks, CG
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I'm not familiar with this title, but Seymour Bernstein cites its usefulness in With Your Own Two Hands: Self-Discovery Through Music, too.
It's a funny coincidence that it's by James Francis Cooke and Playing the Piano for Pleasure is by Charles Cooke.
Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,462
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,462 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218 |
I like your book. I glanced through it fast, and want to go back for a better look.
For every day warm-ups and scales and arpeggios, I do some part of the Hanon Book. It is very helpful to support a technical foundation if used with care not to over-do it or take the instructions too literally to "raise the fingers high". That can set you up for hand injuries.
But it is convenient, inexpensive, decently bound (mine is sewn in signatures and then glued as well) and printed. It's not a whole method in itself, but I think they take parallel tracks.
Some dislike it, others just assimilate it and keep going. You can motor through it fast, if that's what you need, or take other sectiond as a more moderate pace. I believe it went in print 109 years ago.
But there are lots of other ones out there,,,you could check it out.
People just learning the scales tend to "Cheat", and a teacher can stop little problems before they get to be big problems.
Clef
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,288
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,288 |
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/5000916This is the book I've been using. It's very informative and helpful for me.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,909
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,909 |
The Introduction to Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios© 1913, by James Francis Cooke is quite interesting, giving a "history" of the development of the scale, briefly discussing modes (more information than most of us might want to know), giving writing exercises, suggestions for fingerings, and some practical suggestions on how to practice and play scales.
Following that, however, some of what Cooke gives can be found in any book of scales and arpeggios; some of it seems unique to Cooke: each scale is written out - in two octaves, parallel motion - in two octaves, contrary motion - in two octaves, parallel motion separated by a 3rd or 10th - in two octaves, contrary motion, starting on the third - in two octaves, parallel motion, separated by a 6th - in two octaves, contrary motion, starting on the sixth
He then adds - major and minor scales in double thirds, - major and minor scales in double sixths, - chromatic scale in double minor thirds - chromatic scale in double major thirds - chromatic scale in double minor sixths - chromatic scale in double major sixths - chromatic scale chords of diminished sevenths - scales in octaves
That's just for the scales; now, the arpeggios ...!
Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977
500 Post Club Member
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977 |
Thanks guys. I hesitate to get into all this. For one thing, I'm a total hedonist and would much rather work on my repertoire. Second, I've heard that some steer clear of these kinds of exercises.
Let me ask you kind folks this, could it be reasonably argued that it would be a better use of my time just to set 15 minutes aside every day to practice trills, say, rather than working on scales?
Last edited by cardguy; 06/15/09 09:36 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I don't think anyone can generalize about what's best for anyone else. My feeling about scales, arpeggios and other technical exercises is that if you need them, you'll benefit from doing them; likewise, if you do them and benefit from the experience, then you needed them.
At a younger age, I think I would have been fascinated by something as exhaustively erudite as Cooke's Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios. While it still interests me, and I have an admiring respect for such a comprehensive and intensely didactic approach to technique, I can't muster any motivation to master it myself.
Purely technical exercises may further our objectives; they may be found valuable in their own right, too. Or they may not! Each of us has to decide what we ultimately hope to achieve from the practice of music, how our time at the piano is best spent in the service of that goal, and whether our progress is satisfactory.
Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977
500 Post Club Member
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977 |
Good points as always, Steven. I just don't have either the interest or the energy to try some exhaustive study of music theory, or even a cursory one. I'm 58 years old, and have that "time's awasting" feeling. My goals are simple: I want to learn to play as much beautiful music as I can, and I don't want to feel hindered by my lack of technical finesse. So, whatever mode of practice that will get me there the quickest is the way I want to go...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I think a certain amount of experimentation and even trial and error is involved in finding what's "best"; the most important thing is probably the resolve never to be defeated by frustration but instead be willing to seek different and more effective approaches.
Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,201
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,201 |
Scales are an important part of theory. To play well we need to understand them and have technical fluency with them. Having said that, I do not believe they are the end all and be all of technique.
In the 19th century, many tacky “bravura†pieces were composed by virtuoso pianists that used much scale playing in 3rds, 6ths, and octaves. The musical value of all this scale passagework is dubious, and most of these pieces have fallen out of the standard repertory.
But, the notion that one should spend an enormous amount of time warming up with scales (and arpeggios) persists in some quarters. Like all routines, if you get used to playing X amount of scales before practicing literature, then your playing suffers if you suddenly slack off routine. So, scale study should be approached with caution.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
To play well we need to understand them and have technical fluency with them. It's possible to understand scales without practicing them, and I'm certain that many people play repertoire quite well indeed without ever touching scales other than scalar passages within repertoire. Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572 |
It's possible to understand scales without practicing them, and I'm certain that many people play repertoire quite well indeed without ever touching scales other than scalar passages within repertoire.
That must work in the inverse sense as well: many people have a great repertoire that they understand without practicing it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
That must work in the inverse sense as well: many people have a great repertoire that they understand without practicing it. I don't know what that means, but I think the converse is true: many people have a great repertoire that they practice without understanding it. Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 552
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 552 |
The "Cooke Book" encyclopedia of scale and arpeggios is a book I have had and used for over 30 years. I only use it for reference though because if you attempted to go through all the scale and arpeggios in all 12 keys with the proper fingerings listed, you wouldn't have enough time to devote to playing pieces.
This book I feel is written for a serious piano student who is preparing for a concert career, not something for an adult beginner to worry about. I think there are other books, not as deep to pull off as far as technical purposes in playing the piano/keyboard.
I think some of the other books recommended by others here might be a better choice than dealing with the "Cooke Book."
katt
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
I only use it for reference though because if you attempted to go through all the scale and arpeggios in all 12 keys with the proper fingerings listed, you wouldn't have enough time to devote to playing pieces. I downloaded the book last year. I only worked on the scales since I was restarting but I went through all of them. Using the routines set out by Cooke, one might spend a good 15 minutes per day, and two weeks was more than enough to get any scale rather thoroughly for the first run-through. Even if you practice only an hour a day, that would leave 45 minutes for repertoire and other things. All 12 keys would be covered in 6 months. The key signatures are grouped in something like 3 or 4 groups (It's been a while), according to which pattern of black and white keys they fall into, and each pattern essentially has the same fingering. So there isn't a lot to remember in a sense. I liked the clarity and logical manner in which he set everything out. It made things so much easier.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,395
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,395 |
Let me ask you kind folks this, could it be reasonably argued that it would be a better use of my time just to set 15 minutes aside every day to practice trills, say, rather than working on scales?
Sorry, but I think I am missing some hidden logic in that question. At any rate, if it were me and I really only had 15 minutes a day for technical work, I would at least try to have a couple of things going, alternating the days I worked on them.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,931
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,931 |
My teacher's father, Dr. Eugene Ayres, contributed to the history of the scale--Greek and Modes--that the book contains. James Francis Cooke was a friend of the family and Dr. Ayres taught Greek at Bryn Mawr. I, of course, do have a copy of it and while I don't refer to it now, I find it very thorough and anyone seeking information on the scales/arpeggios would have more than adequate information.
While suggestions on how to practise the scales, prepare the thumb for turning under the hand and vice versa, there are numerous suggestions for that as well. Learning to play scales properly is an inherent necessity as part of musicianship. How this is done is somewhat up to the instructor and the student. Wilhelm Bachaus stated that scales and arpeggios were the 'backbone' of his technique which was fabulous. I practise scales daily in some form as suggested by one of my teachers and find it most beneficial. For those who feel they are unnecessary, then they must not have the same view that they are beneficial as I do and others as well.
As for the book, I don't know of a more sensible, practical compendium regarding scales in a very usable format.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919 |
One thing I've noticed in the Cooke compendium is his regimen for practing very fast scales with "pier notes" as a device for developing extreme velocity. I haven't seen this approach used elsewhere.
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977
500 Post Club Member
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 977 |
"Learning to play scales properly is an inherent necessity as part of musicianship."
Varcon, could you elaborate on this a bit. I'm an adult re-beginner, slogging through intermediate to advanced intermediate type stuff. The biggest obstacle, that I'm aware of anyway, seems to be my lack of technical skill, or maybe best to call it simple mechanics. I get bolixed up when the piece calls for too much speed, and never know what I'm going to get when I attempt a trill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|