Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Question: Staccato, and a double note

Hi, 2 more questions from me here

- When playing staccato, you can't really use the pedal, because that kind of ruins the effect. But when playing Beethoven's 2nd mov of the Pastorale sonata, it all sound kind of dry to play it without any pedal at all. So how can you make a good transition between using the pedal, and playing the staccato's?

- Is this circled note played by the left/right or both hands? As it should be sustained being a half note, the left hand needs to hold it?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/vvanrij/2.jpg

And can in your opinions pedaling ever be a substitute for holding a note?


Sometimes you see a slur between 2 the same notes, thus it has to be played only once, and be sustained for the duration of that slur+the extended note, which sometimes leaves your hand in a strange position trying to hold that note, and play the other (non sustaining) notes.

Though it may seem counterintuitive, staccato and pedaling aren't mutually exclusive. Think of staccato as a manner of articulation that just happens to have the effect of audible detachment; pedaling may affect the effect (!), but the articulation is still staccato—which is what the composer intended. (I'm not familiar with Beethoven's Pastorale sonata, so these remarks are general.)


The left hand plays (and holds) the G-sharp octaves written as whole notes. The half notes (B-sharp) are played (and held) with the thumb of the right hand.


Pedaling must occasionally substitute for holding a note, as, for instance, when it's impossible to reach all the notes to be held or when the finger(s) holding a note (or notes) must play other notes during the duration of the held note(s). The physical impossibility of playing such passages strictly as written without employing pedal would have been recognized by the composer, who chose that notation anyway.


You're right that this situation can put your hand in an awkward position, but what you describe as a "slur" between identical notes (indicating that the key is held for the duration of their combined values) is actually called a tie instead. The symbol is basically the same for marking phrases, slurs and ties, but it has a different function in each case.

Steven

As far as your question about pedaling, I recommend listening to a few recordings of the piece. I am also not familiar with this sonata, but since you've tried playing it "dry" and not liked it, then that is not the right course for you to take. Have you tried direct pedaling? This means instead of the normal syncopated or legato pedaling that creates a smooth sound with no breaks, you press the pedal down with each keystroke and lift up the pedal each time to lift off the key. This creates separation between the notes without is being completely dry. The staccatos will not be short in this case either.

Ignore the pedal markings printed on a score. They
were put in by an editorial hack and are not taken
seriously by experienced players. Pedaling is all
ad lib by ear for the best result and can vary
depending on the player's technique, his interpretation,
the effect he's trying to produce, the particular
instrument he's playing on, the particular passage
he's playing, the particular audience he's playing for,
and so forth. The resulting pedaling can be
anything, from no pedal at all, to flooring it
and leaving it down, to pedaling on every note,
and so forth.

You might be pedaling when there are staccato notes,
but again, it all depends what your ear tells you to
do with the pedal.

Held notes, either by virtue of their long time value
or by a tie, are not necessarily always held as
shown on the score. If your technique is not able
to play them as written, or if holding them or not
holding them makes no difference in the resulting
sound, then you might not actually hold them for
the full time value in performance. And your
pedaling is a factor in this too. The effect of the
pedal might make holding them unnecssary, depending
on the situation. Your ear is the final judge
in all such questions.

Pedal markings, like fingering suggestions, may or may not be useful depending on a number of factors. Experienced players do take them seriously (except, of course, those who pretend they know more than the composer or editor responsible for the suggestions).

There's no such thing as an "editorial hack"; editors are pianists and musicologists. Their scholarship may not be infallible or universally applicable, but they are experts who know far more than an internet hack who would have you believe that their recommendations should be summarily rejected.

Steven

I have to disagree. 90% of the scores i use have bad pedal markings. Look at the prelude no.4 for example: http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/8/83/IMSLP00485-Chopin_-_Preludes__Op_28.pdf

To stop a possible confrontation from happening, I'm using a Henle Verlag edition (Urtext), which I still regard very highly, and truthfull to beethovens works, and there are no pedalling marks! Thank you all very much for your suggestions, especially you Steven, again being very clear in your explanations. What a great forum! Cheers

To me, those markings aren't wrong or "bad" so much as incomplete (if one supposes that one should pedal only where indicated).

If a given edition has consistently inadequate pedal indications, I recommend using another (just as you would choose another edition if you found the fingering suggestions consistently unworkable). Because there are so many editions to choose from (for the major composers, at least), the best course for me is to compare several different texts for any passages in which fingering or pedaling isn't clear-cut to me.

For Chopin's works, fortunately, the original French, English and German editions published during his lifetime are available at Chopin's First Editions Online, which even has an interface permitting three scores to be viewed in separate panes and zoomed or navigated independently.

GreenRain, I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences with the scores you've used. I chalk it up to "your mileage may vary." In any case, such editorial suggestions are just suggestions; even if they originated with the composer himself, they're not always going to be found practical. Still, for me, being serious about learning a piece of music means at least giving them serious consideration before deciding how to proceed.

Steven

Interesting site. Are there any prewievs? I am really interested.

I can understand why you think that following the original markings on scores is relevant, but i beleive that it can also be a part of interpretation. After all, we can't know if the markings were actually added by composer (unless we have a really good source of sheet music), and we also can't know if the pedal markings, that composer add, were serious or if he/she just wrote them because it was common to do so.

But i have to say that i completely disagree with your "statement", that pianist, that ignore pedal marks, think that they know more than composer. I think that it's just the matter of the taste. I dislike some pieces that Chopin wrote (mostly mazurkas), and when i played one previous summer, I ignored many markings on score. It didn't mean that i thought that i am better than Chopin (if that would be the case, i would need therapist for mental disorders ), I just played it the way i liked it.

The staccato lh vs. legato rh is a very important component of this piece. If you want to use pedal where there is those textures, you have to be very careful to keep the legato. That's one of the reasons this is a difficult movement.
IMO, don't pedal those sections, because there are other contrasting sections in the movement where you can add color with pedal.




You have two notes circled. The B sharp is played with the rh, and the G(G#?) is played with the lh. The lh should hold it.



Yes. The short answer is, it's done all the time. On the other hand you can't generalize across the board by saying "it's ok to pedal instead of holding notes." It depends on the composer, how he notated music, etc.