Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Has this ever happened to you???

Have any of you fellow tuners had to deal with this problem?

You finish a tuning on a perfecly good piano... and the customer (in this case an elderly lady) insists that *one note* is completely out of tune.

You complete all the checks, and then surmise that all is ok.

The customer still insists that the note in question is completely 'wrong'.

What do you do?

In this instance, I re-tuned the note to her liking, and she was completely satisfied - but it was wildly out-of-tune.

Do you satisfy the customer, or stand your ground?

I would be ashamed if another expert were to have assessed my work, because it was so obvious that this particular note was so badly 'wrong'.

Any thoughts?

I had that problem twice. Once with an elderly lady who has perfect pitch and once with an elderly man who wears hearing aids. In both cases there was only one note they complained about. I decided to stand on my ground. First I tuned that note how they told me and then played a chord. Horrible! But these customers didn´t complain about the bad chord because they were so focused on the one note. In the case of the man with hearing aids I found out that he called another tuner after I had my work done.

It´s a difficult matter. Indeed the question is: satisfy the customer or do a good tuning. When you try to satisfy the customer the danger is that he will notice a bad chord or intervall a few days after you tuned. And he will be dissatisfied again. You lose anyway

In reference to Gregors' post - the matter of 'hearing aids'...

When I was at college, we paid a visit to another very respected college in England - for the blind/partially sighted/hard-of-hearing.

They have an excellent school of piano tuning (obviously mainly aimed at young people with visual difficulties).

However, the young man who guided us round was a student of piano tuning - and he had hearing-aids in both ears!!!

I don't wish to sound cynical, but surely that didn't bode well for his intended future career?

Tune it the way the want it (the customer's "always" right, you know...), write on one of your business cards "G47 (or whatever) mistuned at customer's direction" and leave it where the tuner they call after you leave can find it...

We've all run into this. I recently followed up after a friend technician that gave me this fellow's name after this friend did what he could think of to satisfy this older gentleman. Nothing he did could make him happy and yet, I know this guys work and it is good.

I arrived to listen to his spiel that the tuning was sharp, one clue, (voicing) and he wasn't satisfied. My friend also told him that I could tune it either by ear, or with RCT. The fellow decided RCT would be better. Well, little do people know that we use our ears and RCT both.

When I finished tuning, I called him into the room and played several songs at which point, I noticed he had hearing aides in both ears. He said, the piano sounded marvelous. I had him set down and try all of the notes including those I had voiced down a bit that I evened out. I made him go over and over it. He said, the piano never sounded so good! Perfect! He said. This was after spending 20 minutes extra time for free, making sure he was happy.

I said to my son as I left. "Jer, by the time we get home (it was the last tuning of the day) he will be on my voice mail." Naaaa, Jr said, he's a nice man, what makes you think that? "I can tell by his actions and the type of person he is. In this case, nothing makes them happy."

Sure enough, he was on the machine with his complaints. I returned his call immediately. He said; "After I sat down and played it again, there are so many notes that are out of tune, I just can't stand listening to it.

I let him finish and then, at that point, I said, look, I intentionally had you set down and I also played it, you were extremely happy and told me so many times while I was still there. Do you know what the REAL problem is? "The other guy told me the problem was me and my hearing aides." EXACTLY! I said. Your hearing aides are picking up louder sounds than normal hearing picks up. The piano is in tune. No if's, and's or but's about it. It is in tune. Now, I can come out and tell you this in person, but, it will cost you a tuning fee to get me out there to waste both my time and yours. The other technician was good. So am I and you know it. You already called around checking my credentials and found that our right? You told me so yourself. "Yes, you're right, I did do that and they were impeccable."

OK then. Do some research on your own about it once.

5 days later, he calls me back saying, "I just talked to my brother in another state. He said after wearing hearing aids he can no longer listen to the old records he used to enjoy, it hurts his ears and they all sound horribly out of tune and that his doctor told him sometimes hearing aids distort things that normal hearing doesn't distort. I've never heard of that before." I said, well, I encounter this a lot with older people and especially those wearing hearing aids. In restaurants with my dad, if someone dropped a plate smashing it, it would scare the living crap out of him because the sound was so amplified in his ears. On top of that, he and you too, have your hearing aid turned up so far that it is squealing which will also distort and impede other sounds. You don't' hear it squealing but, I could hear it clean from your basement where you were at.

Well, I would still like to compare your RCT to your work when you're done next time. I thought to myself, yeah, like I'm coming back again...

In other cases, I do what I have to do within reason to make the customer happy. Mostly, 10 our of 10 times it is a voicing issue, a buzz, to loud, to soft, but, I never yet, have had a piano that was out of tune unless they call back 4 months later and we've had our major weather change. Then, of course it will be out of tune.

Sometimes, I will tune it out of tune just to make them happy BUT, I always tell them that NOW, it is out of tune but, if that is where you like it, fine. I make a note of that inside of the piano somewhere for the next person, just in case and why. 99% of the time, I tune it, eliminate bobbling hammers, voice it and then they are happy.

Most often, the problem is threefold. 1. It hasn't been tuned in eons and the client expects that a tuning is a "cure all."

2. Something isn't working correctly which is why they called you in the first place. Again, they expect the tuning to be the cure all in many of these cases.

3. It is a voicing issue. Some notes are louder or softer than others. More than likely, hammers need carding and the rest of the piano also needs work.

Good reply Jerry - very comprehensive!

But the question is still this - do you compromise your standards in order to keep that *one* customer happy?

I have not had this problem (yet). I think that it could often be when someone is used to how certain notes "always sounded in the past." If it should happen to me, I think I will ask them to wait a month for the piano to settle in (the customers ears to settle in) and then if they don't like it I would see what I can do.

But also I decided a long time ago that if someone does not like how my tuning sounds, and I can't please them, I won't charge them. (I don't advertise this of course.) It hasn't happened so far.

Yes, this was my answer to that question.

I don't "usually" charge for a return trip but, I do explain that it is not out of tune showing them just exactly what it is. That is, unless they are one of those chronic complainers that nobody can please like the above mentioned fellow, then, you bet I charge extra for return trips otherwise, they will milk you dry.

I always return right away while the piano is still freshly tuned. Technically, we are not responsible for the tuning once we walk out the door. What happens to it, the environment, kids banging on it, doors and windows opened and closed throughout the day, sun shining on it, heat being turned up etc..., will all affect if and how long the piano will stay in tune.

I used to have this problem with a 98 year old concert pianist who used hearing aids. I still enjoyed tuning for her, because she would test the piano by playing Schumann's Toccata. She would talk about studying with Harold Bauer, which is probably why she had the Mason & Hamlin BB. But I am pretty sure the hearing aids distort certain tones, either with resonances, or just because amplification distorts things. That is why I do not trust electronic tuning devices to be accurate in all situations.

I keep telling you ... tune up on the G note!



I have eyes of a hawk and the ears of a gazelle.

Hee Hee. It happened to me last week. Very nice elderly lady and good player with a Yamaha G-1. 10 min after I left her house, she's on the phone saying one note in the bass sounded a half step flat. I returned two days later to find the note was fine. I fiddled with it a bit, and she still said it was flat, but resigned to that's how it was going to sound.

Another elderly lady with a Steinway M said the top 16 notes were not bright enough. I added some lacquer. She called me back wanting more lacquer and wouldn't take no for an answer. I tried to nicely suggest perhaps it was her hearing, but she wasn't having that. Reluctantly, I added more juice. She passed away this year, and her son calls me asking about the piano. I remembered her and asked him if the treble was too bright. He said yes! It's terrible. I told him the story of why it's too bright.

He's moving the piano to Iowa, so to his tech in Iowa, my deepest apologies!!!!

Hi,

I got call to tune old boys even older grand piano. it sounded like Grandfathers Clock. I could not think to tune it anywhere near concert pitch. Pins were loose, bass string coils were loosened like before taking them off. He was desperate to get it just tuned, but added, that he had been tuning it also and an old tuning hammer were laying nearby. That happened years ago, and I was desperate to get tools for my workshop. He mentioned that he did woodworks before retirement an still got some tools but asked me to come another time. I spent hours and hours for just tuning fee. The old man seemed to be happy after my work. After month I arrived to his home as agreed to go through his woodworking tools. He said: " I tuned the piano". With great doubts I looked at Piano...coils were loose, and it was Grandfathers Clock again...

I did not say a word maybe just OK

You cannot help to person whose hearing has weakened, but hearing aids create distortion and it never sounds in exactly the same way as we hear sounds and harmonics.

I'm always wary of people who claim to have perfect pitch.

They seem to have a certain 'characteristic'.....

1. Their piano hasn't been tuned for years - and quite often is up to a semitone flat. (if their sense of pitch is so perfect, how do they live with that?)

2. They think they know better than you.

3. They announce their claim to have 'perfect pitch' before you start the job - as if it's some kind of 'warning' that you'd better do the job right - 'or else'...

4. They almost never have perfect pitch.!!!

.

I had this happen with a youngish customer -- maybe early 40's. I was called back to "fix the wrong note." I wouldn't do it this way if it happened again, but at the time I tried to show him the display on TuneLab and to play the 6:3 test for him so that he could be reassured. He was not reassured, and things deteriorated. "The only reason we haven't fired you is . . ." "Sir, you cannot fire me, I am here without pay as a courtesy to your wife, whom I admire . . ." Well, I finally remembered that the customer is always right and retuned C3 to 40 cents flat, as he liked it. (Surrounding notes were all spot-on, by ear and machine. It was a little odd.) In six months the wife called again for a regular tuning. I responded by leaving a message that I didn't think that I could tune the piano to her husband's satisfaction, and I was sorry, but she should call someone else. Looking back, I think that the husband may have had some sort of neuro/perceptive problem, but in any event, I wasn't the right person to service their piano. I'm glad to hear that others have had this sort of difficulty.

Had a client that was an organ player - also owned a Kawai RX7.
She insisted that the octaves in the bass be narrowed so that they would be almost pure 2:1 when I tried it. Lasted for about one octave and could/would not proceed. I tuned the bass back the way it was when I arrived and told her that I did not know how to create a tuning that would satisfy her demands and did not charge. It was mutually agreed that I was the wrong tuner for her. I was pleased as I do not have time or patience for that sort of thing.
Custom tunings like that where you need to extract apparant nonsense from deep within someones head is nothing that I have an interest in.

Thanks, Gene -- my RN license is still active, but, like you, I prefer to tune the piano, not the customer!

I had it happen once, and I basically had no answer. I told her that you cannot play 1 note and claim it is out of tune because piano tuning is tuning the relationship between notes. I said she needed to compare it with octaves and fifths, but I'm pretty sure she remained unhappy.

Even worse, I once had a customer try to play chords in the low bass, and then she complained that it was not "clear". I tried to explain that's why they don't write music for low bass chords except for special effects, etc,, but I got nowhere.

And thirdly, I had a customer insist that his piano was tuned an octave too high, according to his guitar tuner. I tried to explain that tuning an octave lower would sound horrible, that if the piano was an octave high, the strings or plate would have broken, but I never went back on that one either. Octave was pronounced oc-tAAAve.

I had the opposite on the bass last week - the customer wanted it stretched as flat as possible and told me tuners had fought him on it in the past. No problem for an aural tuner - I just stretched the temperament to the max, and continued stretching to the max into the bass. The customer was right, it sounded great to both of us when I finished!