Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Is Irmler made in China?

Every time I read something like the sort of "pure blood" argument (e.g., what's "purely" made in country X, what's not), I feel like resurrecting the Asian Piano Club thread. Heck, I'll go do it right now. It's overdue for an update anyway.

Norbert's first category is a German company building in China. His second category is German company which is pure German and he describes it as having order "books looking great." Many German companies are using low wage Central European countries to source brands and parts. They seem like the middle category to me. And to describe the first category as the losing one and the second category as the successful approach as Norbert does is not accurate. Some companies in the second category have lost great sums of money, such as Bosendorfer.

Norbert also leaves out the whole Japenese and Korean companies. Plus many German companies used to have pianos made in other countries such as South Africa and England. (By the way that is an interesting story in itself. Ivan Kahn was telling me many of the details of how his family made pianos for German companies in S. Africa.)

My point is that their are not two simple categories of German and how it does or does not buys Chinese. Even the name of this thread is misleading. Irmler has not ever been made in China.

Turandot, I really appreciate your thoughtful and detailed posts and your great knowledge. And I usually appreciate Norberts posts. Now if we can get him to shape up enough to post his real picture...

from Jordang
No argument about there not being simple categories....many different ways that the game is played in terms of levels of disclosure, levels of hype, branding, requirements placed on dealers, etc. I don't think you want to say that Irmler has never been made in China though, especially in light of your post here of the information received from your friend Mr. Kahn.

Jordang, you misunderstood what I said.

My message was directed primarily at those German makers who think they can/will successfully compete with lowerpriced lines of pianos in the future.

The fact of the matter - and this is only an expressed opinion on my part - is that if they keep dabbling in lower end lines and putting their resources into this - they will be eaten alive.

If this is called "bias" - so be it - I mean it.

Entry into China,and the rest of the world, will not be happening by competing with the Chinese or even Japanese on their own level - but by offering something truly special.

Ibach, Pfeiffer, Thuermer or Feurich were/are too small a company to make a difference one way or the other.

For those remaining left and in operation today, the stakes are far higher.

Meantime, let everybody suit themselves the way they see fit.....

Norbert

N, I think that there's a place for companies with B and C lines. For example, The Steinway family of pianos. Profits from the sales of the B's and C's can be applied to promoting the A's.

Asian manufacturers probably will move up-market, but their products won't have the caché of the storied brands. The premium pianos will attract sophisticated shoppers. Those folks will be able to distinguish between incarnations, e.g., Samick's Knabe, and the real deals.

There will be some status-seeking buying and the 'Net will be a source for forming opinions re desirable brands.

I'm more concerned about Baldwin. If as someone recently posted, that company has decided to brand everything as a "Baldwin," I fear that they'll end up muddying their own water.

We shall see....

Turandot I stand corrected. Yes the Irmler Students sold in Europe were made in China and these same pianos are sold in the US as Breitmann.

Norbert. I guess that you will be wrong. I understand Steinway to be a German brand also making many pianos in Germany. So you are predicting that Steinway, Bluthner, Schimmel, Bechstein, and Yamaha Bosendorfer and maybe others will be "eaten alive." I hope and guess not.

Aside from the 2 mainstream Japanese manufacturers - Yamaha & Kawai - no Asian manufacturer has been able to get its premium brand into Tier 2. So obviously, the piano experts have been able to distinguish between the incarnations.

No, but if the top Germans keep muddling in lower lines, it will or certainly *can* affect the status of their own marques in the end.

Nobody can pull off just as easy what Steinway has been doing for decades now - time has elapsed and it is a different playing field today.

If I like to buy the best there is, I like to buy from makers who are dedicated to exlusive quality,like Rolex watches or Meissen Porcelain.

interesting chapter here if you like:

http://www.meissenusa.com/company/history.html

Building all over the world IMHO, only serves to erode the confidence I would have in such company striving to maintain a top notch position.

Norbert

The Blüthner factory has recently expanded to accommodate among other things increased Irmler production. Instruments bearing the Irmler name originate in different parts of the world and are shipped to different parts of the world.

All of the instruments that are sold outside of the Chinese market are finished in Leipzig. Many final and critical decisions are executed in the factory to guarantee the best musical performance and the best value for the individual.

The Irmler pianos sold in the United states represent the finest Irmler pianos available anywhere in the world and compare favorably to many tier 2 and some tier 1 instruments IMO.

This is an interesting topic, and one in which the Tier 1 manufacturers really don't have to worry about diluting the quality of their name as long as they don't dilute their Tier 1 products. Steinway has created the prototype of how to run this business. There is absolutely no product contamination between Steinway and its Boston and Essex lines. Steinway is simply grabbing additional slices of the market without making any capital investment in setting up its own manufacturing facilities. It simply buys the pianos at a manufacturer's wholesale price and has the pianos shipped either directly to its dealer network or to a distribution point where it can check out the pianos one last time to correct minor defects and to cull out the dogs. Engineering costs are minimal and it incurs no manufacturing costs.

Furthermore, its risks actually get lower as Asian manufacturing improves and the price point largely holds, i.e. when pianos improve in quality fatser than they do in price, it improves the overall number of people who might one day want to trade up to a Tier 1 product. In short, the new millionaires being minted in China are not buying Hailuns, Stecks, and Brodmans. They're buying Steinways, Bosendorfers, Bluthners, etc. Steinway, for example, lists China as one of its fastest-growing international markets -- and it makes absolute sense.

How well is the strategy working? Of Steinway's $235 million in revenues last year about 20% (maybe $47 million) was from the sale of Boston and Essex pianos. Are those buyers getting a little slice of Steinway because the pianos are "Steinway designed?" From a marketing perspective, they certainly are, although it's questionable how much they're really getting technically. When I asked a Steinway sales rep why I should pay more for a Boston than an equivalent Kawai, she explained how the wood was cured for a longer period and that Boston pianos would age better and hold their tone better over the years. At that moment, I understood the true meaning of ROFLMAO as the room smelled of buffalo.

The bottom line, however, is that buyers plopped down about $47 million for overpriced Asian pianos for the right to be members of the Steinway family. Are they stupid buyers? There's no doubt, for example, that an equivalent Kawai is just as good at a lower price point, and there's also no doubt that you can get an equivalent Chinese brand to an Essex for a lower price. What you cannot get, however, is the Steinway magazine sent to you every month, and you also cannot be part of a Tier 1 prestigious piano family like Steinway. You also get the security that comes from buying from a major name manufacturer, along with the assurance that the piano at least meets a good quality standard. The Essex pianos may not play or sound better than a number of Chinese models, but they're certainly solidly built and make a fine entry level piano, albeit for $1K to $2K more than stencils with a far less well-known name.

So given that there is a value associated with the security of a brand name and the psychological value of belonging, buying a Boston or Essex piano, or Vogel or May Berlin, or Irmler, etc. may just be worth it as long as the name in question completes the marketing loop and makes you feel like you're a member of an exclusive fraternity. After all, owning a piano and playing music is ultimately a form of entertainment and who is to say that the value of belonging to a prestigious family isn't worth the premium you paid?

Think about it. Almost everyone on this board would agree that there was something that makes paying $30K for an Estonia or $60K to $90K for a Steinway or $100K+ for a Bosendorfer, Bluthner, or Fazioli worth it because they deliver that special extra that somehow reaches into your soul. Is it really worth that much money when you can get functional performance from pianos for only $15 to $25K? It probably is. So what's the big deal if you pay a few thousand more for a Boston, Essex, Vogel, May Berlin or Irmler if the benefit is the values of belonging and security?

Caz,

I agree with you up to a point. I don't think the 'family of fine pianos' approach is so much to make hay in the USA though. That may have been true of Steinway's plan years ago. But the Europeans are coming late to the party and there's not much hay to be made here anymore.

This is really about getting a toehold in Asia both in terms of manufacturing relationships and marketing channels. The Euros realize their manufacturing costs are not competitive with those in Asia and that their biggest potential sales market is in Asia. US may be strategic, but not the place to look for high-volume sales. We have a bad economy and a declining interest.

One other thing. People pay the Estonia premium for what's inside the piano, not for any mystique that surrounds it. The same is true of people who buy a thoroughbred from Sauter, Steinbraeber, or any other maker who isn't dabbling in the 'family of fine pianos' approach.

Some of the European companies that are marketing sub-lines are quite reticent (to be polite) to reveal to the potential customer just where on earth the piano has been made. Read the Bluthner statement from Alex Hernandez on this thread about the Irmler sourcing. I know someone who recently shopped an Irmler. He asked about the piano's origin from the dealer and sent two separate e-mails to people inside the Bluthner company. He couldn't get a clear answer from any of the three, and he was no looky-loo. He was at the point of purchase. The best he could get was the assurance that the pianos were finished off in Leipzig. If the Euro manufacturers take the approach of ordering a batch from here, a batch from there, and maintain flexibility in sourcing to harvest the best Asian product at the lowest cost, they will not have continuity in the product line like that which Steinway has accomplished with their Boston line. This may limit sales to discriminating customers.

One of the most loosy goose pianos I ever played was a Chinese(?) made Irmler. It was even worse than Estonia before it became a US sensation.

It's one thing to start sourcing from Asia; it's another to feel comfortable about it. Steinway created the family fiction and met it head on. As a public company, they had no choice. They have to make such disclosures otherwise they'd be sued into oblivion by their shareholders.

I can understand how a privately-held Tier 1 European firm can be embarrassed about it and try to hide it. In the long run, however, that's a really bad strategy that will backfire on them. A lot of owning a piano is perception. How would you like to find out that your beautiful piano from the family of Bluthner that you thought was from Germany really came from China? You might be Dastocksauer ab, which the language translation website said was ****ed off in German.

For all the heat Steinway takes on PW, I do think they've handled this issue well, making no secret about where their pianos are made. People care and want to know about this for their own reasons and it really doesn't matter what those reasons are. I am interested in where a piano (or anything else) is made and it can be a factor in my buying decision. I would not necessarily rule out a piano based on where it was made but I definitely would rule out a piano if I couldn't easily find out where it was made. Obfuscation by manufacturers and their dealers on this question is self-destructive behaviour. In the face of such obfuscation, people may assume there is something to hide and look elsewhere.

Let me give you a case in point. I looked at new Schulze Pollman uprights the other day: the 114, 118 and 126. All played very well, and it looked like they were members of the same family. The 114 was $7,500, the 118 was $9,500, and the 126 was $11,500. The 118 and 126 are true Italian brothers with Renner action and hammers, Roslau strings, and a soundboard from the Val die Fiemme forest. The 114 comes from Asian (China, I think?), and has a different soundboard, strings, and action. Apparently, about the only things that are the same are the Renner hammers and the name on the case.

How do you spell misleading practice that leaves a bad taste in my mouth? Ironically, the piano played great. Nevertheless, it's a mystery piano because I don't know its sourcing. Furthermore, S-P doesn't even have it on its website, so I can't find out.

If there's someone from S-P on PW, please tell your management that they're only hurting their great name by not dealing with this correctly. If it were properly disclosed and labeled at the dealer, I wouldn't have any problems at all. I'd probably be raving about how great a piano it was for the price ...

Surely you jest.

Am I the only one that thinks we hold piano manufacturers/retailers to a different standard than other industries/products?

If I'm shopping for a SubZero fridge, a BMW or an Italian couch, do I really know where all the components are made and is the pricing of that product truly "transparant"? If I asked the dealer to carefully detail the source of all the components, and what their margin was, would I really have a basis to be offended if that information was not readily forthcoming?

I'm not trying to raise a stink, I'm truly curious how we piano lovers come to the conclusion that these kind of issues are offensive and misleading, when outsourcing and global procurement in the pursuit of providing a variety of attractive price points is one of the hallmarks of modern society and a significant contributor to our Western style of living.

It has to be more than the simple European image issue. I still like BMW's and Gagganau appliances (don't own either), and if they work right, that's enough for me. I know that BMW's are made in South Carolina.

Do those of you who take such offense at the lack of forthcoming clarity hold the manufacturers of all your other purchases to the same standard?

Note my key caveat..."it has to work right".

Eric,

I have to disagree with you here. I'll be joining Starting Over when he marches out the dealer's front door. If the seller of a piano when confronted point-blank with the simple question: "Where was it made" chooses to hem and haw, bob and weave, and refuse to give a simple answer, I'm not interested.

This idea of final inspection, fine-tuning, finished off, fertiggestellt, post-assembly regulation, etc. is reassuring in that it stresses the company's committment to back the product. But it's not a substitute for a simple disclosure of the country of manufacture.

Personally I'm not afraid of 'made in China', 'made in Indonesia, or 'made in Macao', but let's be realistic. In terms of pricing and value received, apples need to be compared to apples, and oranges (such as your delectable avatar) to oranges.

Well actually if the thing works (i.e. touch and tone) and it isn't falling apart I couldn't care less where it was built. Clearly a lot of forumites do care.

From TheCaz " Ironically, the piano played great" do you mean surprisingly? Do you find irony or surprise in a piano that performs well but dosen't have a known pedigree? I wouldn't be gripped by either of those emotions if I sat at any piano that sounds and feels good.