Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Negotiating with the Dealer

Hi all-

New here, found this great resource while trying to get a handle on all of the different models and prices, etc. It's been such a help!

After playing at both the Yamaha and Roland dealer over several weeks, and consulting the prices paid threads, I'd settled on the Roland HP-203. I was fairly confident that I should be asking for somewhere between $2100-$2400 for the 203.

The local dealer, however, is very firm that the price is $2900. I was there for several hours, and they aren't budging. This seems high to me, for the 203. They were, however, willing to let me walk out the door, even though I had cash in hand.

Does this seem right? I woulda thought they'd be ready to deal, what with the economy and all, but they seemed to be really a little snooty about it. Kindof, "the Steinway or the Highway" so to speak. No wiggle room at all.

What do you all think?

People have paid $2900 (or even less) for the top-of-line HP207!

You say you had "cash in hand", so your intent to buy is clear. (A dealer might not talk seriously about price otherwise).

So it sounds like this is not the right dealer. Keep looking.

I do not know this specific situation. I do know that price paid listings and discussions on this and other forums can set up folks with unrealistic expectations and make the purchase of an instrument even more troublesome than it needs to be.

Frequently price paid reports do not include pertinent data that would effect negotiations as:
How was it paid for? AMEX carries a high merchant fee.
Was it open stock (floor model)? B stock from the distributor? Used? etc.

Price paid reports are time sensitive. Wholesale prices are adjusted (almost always up) by distributors/manufacturers on an at will basis. Sometimes multiple times in one calendar year. Small dealers with little or not back up stock will be showing the newer higher cost often with the next unit received.

Actual selling prices are market driven. Some regions are more hotly contested with multiple dealers competing for your purchase. Other markets are insulated by 100's of miles between dealers.

If you approach you "negotiations" in an upfront manner and ask to speak with a manager or owner. If you are walked out by two dealers at a certain price then that should tell you your "price" is not viable in that market. No retailer is going to walk profitable business in this economy. There are limits to minimum levels of profitability to stay in business, economic climate not withstanding.

I would also imagine that the prices reported are weighted towards the low end due to many folks not wanting to "admit" to paying a price significantly higher than what has already been reported. I wouldn't be surprised if the prices reported represent something closer to the 80% percentile.

If the OP is stating things accurately and the dealer really did let him walk out the door with cash in hand without budging (and assuming it was the owner/mgr vs just a salesman), then that speaks volumes as to what the realities are.

This is what I'm trying to get a feel for. Horwinkle and the spreadsheet claim that $2000 for this piano is what I should expect. So when the manager of the store claims $2900 is as low as he can go, I'm left not knowing what to think. That's just such a huge difference in price.

Really, I'm starting to get sick of the whole process, and am thinking of just getting one of the fixed price lower-end models. I'm not buying a car for $30K, it's a piano, fer crissakes. I just want to know a reasonable price, and feel like I am not getting ripped off.

Why not just say "screw him" and go to another dealer?

Jonny,

A little patience. Read Marty's list of factors again. They are not salesspeak. They are all true. Also read Bit's warning about the prices paid thread which has now become a spreadsheet.

Horiwinkle has developed those informal price-paid posts into a spreadsheet to make them convenient for reference. However, neither Horiwinkle nor this forum can possibly vouch for their accuracy. Nor can they vouch that those particular prices represent any kind of cross-section of actual prices.

When you're dealing with piano retailers, price is determined at the point of sale. Like it or not, it's a mating ritual. This dealer has not responded to your mating call. It's up to you to find the next closest Roland dealer and contact him.

Piano retailers who represent Roland are not supposed to quote prices on the phone. This is part of respecting territoriality among dealers. However, if you tell a dealer on the phone your target price and the lowest price offered by the other dealer, I think the dealer will give you an inkling of what he can do even if you don't get a direct quote.

"Screw you" accomplishes nothing. Ignore that advice.

Indeed, "screw you" is emotional and personal. Negotiations should involve neither of those.

As for the accuracy of people's posted prices ... who can say? There's no means to audit what people claim. But in a market where dealers don't post selling prices, what else can you rely upon? (We can only know for **certain** what we ourselves paid for our purchase.)

All I can conclude is that the prices paid should only be used a guide, not as a bible.

I **can** say for certain that I saw a new HP203 offered for $2000 plus tax. Did that represent the dealer's wish to clear out inventory of a slow selling line? I have no way to know. Or was that price typical for this area? I can't say because I didn't look at Roland's at any other shop.

I should clarify; I did not literally mean he should tell the dealer to screw off or get angry with the guy. But if he's looking for this piano at a certain price and the guy isn't willing to offer at that price (which is 100% fair), then he needs to move on. By "screw him", I mean "well nevermind that guy then, I'll find someone else to buy it from".

Yeah, that's what I figured.

I hear what all you guys are saying and I appreciate the advice. There are other dealers out there, and some are willing to work with me, and that is much appreciated.

It's really the whole process that is just a PITA. It's just a digital piano, it seems like such a waste of everybody's time to have to haggle, and visit multiple dealers, and really in the end never really know how much you are paying above dealer invoice.

It's not so much the money - I buy Apple computers because I think they are have more value than a Dell. But I know when I walk into any Apple store the price will be the same, and I don't have to haggle. I'm neither a computer nor a piano expert. I shouldn't have to become one in order to buy either.

But I guess that's how it's set up for now (until the internet kills their business model) and I'll just live with it!

Thanks for the advice, again!

1. Is the HP-207 only sold by Steinway or is there any competition?
2. I went to Steinway Hall last night: Played an HP-207 and HP203 side by side. The dealer came down from 4299 to 3299 due to "overstock", but wouldn't budge on the HP203, only coming down from 3299 to 2699, so wondering did they make too many HP-207's this year than expected in the market?
3. Do I have a good chance I wonder to bring the HP-207 down. You say someone got one for 2900 what a deal!

The HP-207 had a small nick on the back, and the top keyboard wasn't secured fully to the bottom cabinet...is this an assembly issue - he said the screws just weren't secured. I'd like to either get the HP-203 for $2k or get the $2900 price. Can anyone tell me how the $2900 transpired? Should I get him down to maybe $3100 and thank my lucky stars??

There's no "getting him down". That's not a good strategy, because your're starting high and trying to inch downward.

Instead, start at the low end. That is, don't bring the dealer down. Let him bring you up.

Be sure you understand the delivery costs, if any, before you decide on an offer amount. Then, make the offer.

Here is a Craiglist link to a Roland dealer in Austin Texas selling a Roland HP-203 that is a former rental.

http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/1183964797.html

The ad says it is selling for $2687, and that the retail price is $3299. If that is the retail price, $2000 for a new one sounds unworkable unless the dealer is going out of business.

I don't understand why you say that? Over the last 18 months, member have posted these prices for new HP203's:
$2800
$2000
$2500
$2000
$1950 (inc. tax)
€1650 EUR ($2336 USD)

So I would not conclude that the $2000 is unworkable. Rather, I'd say that the asking price on the Craig's List posting is too high for even a new unit, never mind a used one.

One of the $2000 purchases was from a dealer going out of business where the user paid cash (and thus given an extra 3% discount) and didn't have to pay taxes. Who knows what the circumstances behind the other sale was.

This is a text book example of how the "prices paid" thread in many ways isn't doing anyone any favors (buyer or seller). To make matters worse, you distill the thread into a spreadsheet (and lose information in the process like the context of the purchase) and now we have people literally saying

"Horwinkle and the spreadsheet claim that $2000 for this piano is what I should expect."

Folks "in the know" can talk up how the information should just be used as a guide, how every situation is different, how regions differ, how dealers differ, how the data is likely skewed, etc, etc, etc. But we still get folks who just take the information at face value and start exclaiming to dealers that anything more than $2000 is a ripoff (no, I'm not saying that's what the OP did, just pointing out a very possible outcome).

Again, if the OP walked into a dealer with checkbook/cash in hand and the dealer let him walk out of the door rather than budge, then that's the price the piano is worth. He is certainly free to move on to another dealer and try the same tactic (which is a good one btw if you have multiple dealers) and after a bit, he will have an excellent idea of what the real value of that particular piano is in his particular area. Maybe he'll luck out and find a dealer with extra stock or is (unfortunately) going under and he'll get that magic price he's after. If so, more power to him. But the only way to find out what the "real" price is is to go out and find it, not by reading threads on this forum.

Exactly!

There's something about a spreadsheet that suggests cold hard facts. It's implicit in the form, not the content. Personally, I had no problem with the price-paid thread. It was voluntary, anecdotal, and often was posted as a product of another thread which explored a member's shopping experience. It was obvious that people who posted there were generally pleased with their outcome....no bitch and moan stories. The spreadsheet format, besides leaving out some information, might also lead some to believe that it is somehow a validated product of the forum iself, and not the enterprise of an individual member.

The problem is compounded when the member now states on this thread:

"The HP203 should be $2000, maybe a tad higher with delivery."

None of us are in a position to say what the price should be. Shoppers are free to accept the price, or decline it and move on.

Indeed, if the original posters misrepresented (lied?) about any of the purchase information, then the data are flawed. Barring that, the numbers and related data are indeed cold, hard facts.

Every single one of us is in a position to say what the price should be. And we do so every time we make a purchase. That's what every one of the listed people did. The price paid was exactly what the price should have been, agreed to by both parties.

Horwinkle,

I would expect nothing less from you than a total misunderstanding of where the flaw is. As always, you do not disappoint.

If you disagree, don't just say SO.
Say WHY.

The latter is discussion.
The former is mere argument.