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Originally Posted by vanillascoke
say i have a melody in b minor with my right hand....i can sort of hear what should accompanient it but sometimes i cant figure it out... is there a site that can explain how to figure it out
From your question about the chords to harmonize your melody, I assume that you have not completed the basic music theory sequence, so you need to do a bit of self education in regards to three forms of simple diatonic triads and the four forms of diatonic seventh chords.

There have been several excellent suggestions offered, but much to my surprise no one has suggested a couple of excellent learning tools. One is lead sheets and the other is simple counterpoint. First let's look at chords and their inversions. My apologies to all that the following is second nature.

Diatonic Triads
Any diatonic triad consists of three tones, the root, the third, and the fifth. For example an F# minor chord is F#-A-C#.
I makes no difference in which order the tones are sounded. those three tones together make an F# minor chord.

Diatonic Seventh Chords
A diatonic seventh chord is simply a diatonic triad with an added seventh such as an F# dominant seventh chord would be F#-A#-C#-E. Like the triads, those four tones sounded together always sounds an F# dominant seventh chord.

Inversions
Obviously the lowest sounding note of a triad can be any of the three tones that make up a chord. Let's use an E major chord as an example. That chord is spelled E-G#-B.
  • If the root of the chord is the lowest sounding note, the chord is said to be in root position. It makes no difference whether the next highest note is the G# or the B, it is still in root position.
  • If the lowest sounding note of the chord is the third or the G#, the chord is said to be in first inversion. Like the root position chord whether the E or the B is the next note is immaterial.
  • If the lowest sounding note of the chord is the fifth or the B, the chord is said to be in second inversion. Like the root position chord whether the E or the G# is the next note is immaterial. It's still a second inversion chord.
The same logic applies to seventh chords except when the seventh is the lowest sounding note the chord is said to be in third inversion.

What does all of this have to do with harmonizing your melody? Surprisingly, nothing and everything.

The Lead Sheet Path
If you have access to a fake book with some songs you like and a keyboard, learn how to play those songs using the indicated chord. The process is fairly simple and once you catch on to it well enough that you can pick up a melodic line with the chords indicated above and simply sit and play it.

Start by picking a lead sheet that doesn't have more than one chord per measure, and then analyze it. Look at every note in the melody and determine which notes are chord tones of the chord indicated for that measure and which are not. Play the melody and support with the chord tones with with the inversions of the chord that allows the melody chord tone to be the highest pitch note of the chord. Don't worry about the left hand just yet. Just keep experimenting with the voicing of the chord in the right hand that gives ou the best sound for the melody. Once you have the chords worked out for the right hand, play the piece playing the root of the chord in the left hand. Once you've gained some confidence and proficiency, experiment with the third and the fifth as the lowest chord tone played in the left hand. when you've done this with several pieces, you'll begin to see certain patterns, and that should make harmonizing you melody much easier.

The Counterpoint Route
The simplest and most complicated method of harmonizing your melody is by using the rules of counterpoint. There are several excellent references available for counterpoint, but one of the most concise to use as a starting point is the basic writeup on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint. Start by writing a species one counter point line for the bass then go back and fill in the alto and tenor voices keeping the rules of simple counterpoint in mind. You should keep an eye to the chords to ensure they follow an expected progression, i.e., as close as possible to the circle of fifths.

The Academic Solution
The most robust solution is to successfully complete the standard college level sequence in music theory, 18th century counterpoint, and 20th century counterpoint. (Therein lies the answer to your question about, "Where did you guys learn all this?")

I hope this helps without being too pendantic or obtuse.

Last edited by photowriters; 05/24/09 09:37 PM.

Regards,

Bob
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Yeah, while I'd like to be able to give some super-secret insight into how I learned to composer, the truth is rather complicated:

Lots of aural skills training by three fantastic choral directors during middle and high school.

Tons of improvisation experience in jazz bands in high school and during my undergrade. (And still occasionally as a freelancer.)

A fair bit of transcribing things off the radio.

The following coursework in college:

4-semester core music theory course
16th century counterpoint
18th century counterpoint (which I took 3 times from three different teachers, once as an undergrad, once for my masters, and again during my doctorate)
Introductory Composition
Serial and Aleatoric Composition
Schenkerian Analysis (which I took twice from two different teachers - Schenker's major work, "Free Composition", is a big influence on me)

Various assignments over the years:

I helped do some arrangements for a children's choir at my church.

I did some arrangements for an anthology of children's pieces.

Several arrangements of pieces for a beginning string orchestra class I taught at a public middle school.

I spent one summer during which, every night before bed, I wrote three 8-measure melodies. I'd wake up the next day and play them through, evaluating how good they were. 120 melodies later, I feel like I have a decent feel for what works and what doesn't.

30 years of playing the piano. I regularly steal material from others.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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well you know what they say--- "talent borrows, genius steals"


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Originally Posted by Kreisler
Yeah, while I'd like to be able to give some super-secret insight into how I learned to composer, the truth is rather complicated:
Well said!

A quick survey of music history shows that while there is no single route to acquiring the necessary knowledge and mastery of the subjects of harmony and counterpoint, there is no doubt that mastery and knowledge is extensive and takes both dedication and considerable time, so much so that I am tempted to chuck it all and just go back to being a ROF (Retired Olde Farte).


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oh and can anybody explain the whole tonic dominant subdominant thign for minor key's... like i know that
C major goes like

C Dm Em F G A Bdim C
also can anyone explain what notes the Dim chord are made out of...
sorry for being extremly ignorant about music theory

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Originally Posted by vanillascoke

also can anyone explain what notes the Dim chord are made out of...

sorry for being extremly ignorant about music theory


A diminished chord is just a series of three stacked notes each a minor third apart. So if you take a C Major chord(C, E, and G) and lower the 3rd and the 5th by a half step(C, Eb, and Gb), we get a C diminished chord. As you can see, this chord is just a series of stacked intervals of minor thirds.


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Originally Posted by Kreisler

30 years of playing the piano. I regularly steal material from others.


I do that all the time to! Anybody I can steal from, I make the attemp to do it.

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A quick note on how I think about harmony:

The piece in question is in b minor. The notes of a b minor scale are:

B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A, B

Any given key has three chords that are "more important" than all the others. They are the chords built on the first, fourth, and fifth note and are called Tonic, Subdominant, and Dominant, respectively.

In B minor, these chords are:

Tonic - B, D, F#
Subdominant - E, G, B
Dominant - F#, A#, C#

Note that the dominant has its middle note raised, making it a major chord. This is a quirk of minor keys and is done to create a feeling of motion - the A# is a "leading tone" which leads up to the tonic B.

There are a few alterations that are often made to these chords. For example, you can substitute a VI chord for a i chord, creating a deceptive cadence. You can also use a iio or iio7 chord instead of iv (because ii and iv share two of the same notes, in this case the E and G.)

Dominant chords commonly add a 7th - F#, A#, C#, E. The E has a strong tendency to resolve to the 3rd of tonic chord (D), and the A# has a strong tendency to resolve to the tonic note (B). These notes are so strong that you can sometimes leave out the F# entirely and still get a similar effect (creating an A#, C#, E chord - viio).

Typically speaking, music likes to begin on the tonic, move to the subdominant, then go dominant, tonic. Of course, there are a million variations on that, but that's the basic idea. (It's like plot development in stories - Exposition, Complication, Climax, Resolution)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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what chords would correspond to the C# and D and those other notes?
and so the IV in a minor chord sequence is a minor... but in major its major


and major/minor chord sequences have to have a major V?

also i tried to fill in what i had and managed to fill the bar before the tonic using the 7th trick you mentioned

http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=badharmony.jpg

but i can't finish that one bar thats blank i have no idea what should go there (the other bars that are complete i just took from tar (im wondering if they should be changed since the right hand is sort of changed)

Last edited by vanillascoke; 05/25/09 07:04 PM.
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