Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Will verdigris "grow back"?

Rebuilt an older Steinway vertical, and not surprisingly, all the hammer butt flange centers were terribly sticky from copious verdigris buildup common to Steinway uprights. Repeated applications of Protek CPL were useless - still sticky. I was told reaming and repinning all the flanges would also be non-permanent, because if there was even a little trace of the verdigris left on the cloth, it would contact the new brass pin and eventually "grow back."

So I convinced the customer to spring for a full new set of Stwy. double-flanges plus labor - pricey, but she said "Yes."

So now I'm repinning each new flange with it's bright new verdigris-free cloth and pin, but I'm nervous 'cause as I do I'm noticing some residual verdigris around each hole in the hammer butt itself. I'm wiping off what I can see with vinegar (is that the best verdigris-dissolving solution?), but I assume there may also be some inside the hole. Is there any chance the little bit in the central hole will eventually grow outwards across the pin to reinfect the bushing cloth? If so, is there anything I can treat the butt holes with to make sure that doesn't happen?

P.S. Obviously, installing all new butts w/flanges would be ideal, but that would also require unglueing/reglueing all the hammers/shanks, which, pricewise, is a deal-breaker for my customer.

I wouldn't worry too much if you've gone to the trouble of re-flangeing and repinning. After all it's not really an infection or infestation it's just a little bit of growth from moisture in contact with nickel or brass pins.

But given that in piano factories that I have visited they used to, and probably still do commonly use animal based Tallow fat to lube the centre-pins before they're pushed through the flanges, bushings and centre-part (the latter always being very tight if it's done correctly) I would have thought a little lubricant on the bit that may still be contaminated with verdigris that you're dealing with wouldn't do any harm at all.

Some manufacturers used to advocate wiping each pin through your hair (yes indeed that was enough to put some natural grease on the pin) before driving it through. But one thing I found no long term side effects or problems with when slightly lubricating a flange was WD40 (and before you throw up your hands in horror, WD40 (the original) only contains Petroleum based waxes and animal waxes (tallow) in a 3 to 1 concentration of what we in the UK call White Spirit). In the USA I think white spirit is known as Turps or Turpentine; this is the surfactant in WD40 that chases moisture off things by altering the surface tension of water..

Before I put any WD40 anywhere near a piano action I had a technical conversation with the then makers of the product and it was they who told me that it contains no silicone (not that silicone is a problem) and they said nothing in it would potentially harm anything in a piano action. Felt, Wood, Plastics, Scotch Glue, (Animal Glue), PVA (Wood glue), you name it and WD40 won't harm it as it isn't oil and it isn't silicone.

I would have thought you could get away with just wiping the surface of the hammer-drilling on either side just before you line it up and drive the pin through the flange bushings, with something like a rag just lightly moistened with anti-bacteria spray or even a very small puff of WD40 which will kill off any verdigris left on the wood.

If any verdigris is going to build up in future it will take a very long time, unless the piano is unavoidably stuck in a bad over-humid environment.

I hope that's helpful for you.

One of the biggest problems I had with Bechsteins and Steinways was the buildup of lead oxide on the lead weights in the keys which swelled until keys stuck together as their lead weights jammed up against each other with movement of the key. I had keys and dampers suffer from this almost as an epidemic especially when a grand piano was left in an unheated big old house near the coastal area where I live.
They needed a full strip-down job and it was very hazardous filing down swollen lead weights.
--
Plado (SW England)

Actually WD40 contain some kind of oil or oils. To convince yourself, spray some on a hard surface like glass or a piece of metal. Set it aside to dry for a day--or more if you like--and you'll find a surprising amount of medium weight oil left on the surface. If you search for the MSDS on WD40, it mentions some kind of oil.

Came across an old SS upright recently with jack pins wandering everwhere. It was "repinned" several years ago in response to verdigis. The pins were hanging on each other and causing hanging keys. Imgaine this one: explaining to a customer a repair for a problem that was previously repaired years ago and to repair correctly might require lots of bushing or replacement, yada, yada, yada. Jacks were also stretched, many overpowering the return springs.

Was this repinned "correctly" 20 years ago and the old wood has shrunk? Was it repinned loose because it was still prone to hanging? Either way the customer did not want to a lot of money into it. Moral of the story for me? Repinning is not a guarenteed end state.

Hold on to your chairs for this one! I found carburetor cleaner breaks up the verdigris! Prior to this I used the Zapper by Francis Mehaffey. It used electric current to singe the cloth. Unfortunately if the piano was not used, it would return to the same condition in about 7 years.

I believe WD40 is 90% naptha and 10& mineral oil. At least that's what a company salesman told a local tech years ago.

Sam, I think you guessed right that the previous repair was improper.

From my experience with verdigris, the only real final cure is replacement of all parts. I.e., whippens, flanges etc. Anything where the verdigris has been, basically needs to replaced in order to really get rid of it all.

Everything else is a fools errand. The center pins are heavily damaged by corrosion by the time the problem is noticed. The contaminates are still present in the wooden parts if you re-pin.

There was a guy in San Diego that has ruined many pianos with WD40. There is one in the shop now. Nothing can be done but rebuild the whole thing. The lawsuits finally ran him out. Now his kid is doing it to pianos. What do have to do to convince people you don't use that stuff in a piano?

Spray WD40 on a brand new cresent wrench and wait a week. It will be pitted. Forget about the oil. It's not good. Sure it dissolve corrosion/rust but that's not all.

Nothing is permanent. Not even new parts. If it were, you never would have run into the problem.

This is true of all substances that claim to free corroded parts. They generally contain a weak acid that serves to dissolve the corrosion that is causing the parts to stick. This can be useful when separating corroded parts like nuts and bolts, but problems occur when the "lubricant" starts to evaporate. The acid component does not evaporate as quickly as the carrier and as a result the concentration of acid in the remaining liquid increases over time and can cause significant damage.

I found this interesting:
http://inventors.about.com/od/wstartinventions/a/WDFourty.htm

Greetings,
I won't address WD-40, since there are so many different takes on it, (I know that a Winchester model 12 shotgun that was wiped down with it for over 30 years of duck hunting in southern Louisiana marshes shows no signs of corrosion...)

What scares me is the use of vinegar on the action parts. This is just a weak acetic acid, and I cannot imagine there won't be damage show up on the center pins after normal humidity gets into the act. If you want to clean the verdigis off of the parts, use brake cleaner. Or maybe carb cleaner, but do it outside!

Regards,

When traveling in Europe years ago I came upon a high incidence of verdigris among some pianos that were housed in the same building where a significant amount of wine making was going on (usually in the cellar). One of the byproducts from the fermentation process is sulfate gas and this had led me to believe was a significant (if not the sole) contributor to the verdigris growth in these cases. None of the pianos were S&S. As most of these pianos were common makes and easily found elsewhere without the verdigris I had ruled out the idea that the cloth or pin was contaminated in a way that universally promoted the growth when built. I understand the S&S verdigris issue is of a different nature.

So, if a full replacement of the flanges isn't yet in order, is there agreement that rebushing and repinning will at least buy many years of verdigris-free performance?

I'm working on a 1923 Baldwin, with only a very few pins showing early signs of verdigris and am happy to put in the time rebushing.

Probably. If you like rebushing and re-pinning, go for it. You might get 10-20 years out of it (repeat MIGHT).

Pwg

I have had good results by soaking the joint in orange oil thinner. That is much faster than repinning. If it comes back, just do it again.

I've had situations where liberal application of CLP has lasted many years.

thank you all.

I've CLP'd all of the flange bushings, and all of my flanges are now within spec when measured with my Correx gram gauge. I'm just starting think about a longer term plan—wait until the tension/verdigris comes back or take action now. Rebush/repin or wait a little longer and replace flanges when I do new hammers down the road.

One can unpin the flange and soak the bushings in acetone. While the bushing is wet, use a slightly undersize center pin to push the gunk out into a rag you are holding just on the other side. Wet and repeat as needed until no more green comes out on the cloth. You are in essence dry cleaning the bushing. You must work in open air because of fumes.

Then let everything dry out for a day or two and pin the parts back together.

I usually replace the grand hammer flange when I do this because function here is most critical.

Thank you Ed