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Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: Phlebas] #1197347
05/11/09 01:34 PM
05/11/09 01:34 PM
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John Citron Offline
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Originally Posted by Phlebas
Originally Posted by Kreisler
Originally Posted by xxmynameisjohnxx
Very funny KBK, I was hoping to check out my school's library tomorrow but I figured that internet sources are just as good for this class and easier to use, :P.


Internet sources for classical music are far inferior to books, especially where major composers are concerned.


That is very true.
If you want to be a serious musician. Let me rephrase that: if you want to be taken seriously at all, you need become familiar with more authoritative sources.
When I use online sources like "wiki," I tend to use them as a starting point - never as something I footnote or otherwise reference.


Very true. I use the sources sited in the Wiki as a starting point for my research when needed. As a current college student, I'm not allowed to use the good old Wiki as a source for anything. If it is used, the instructors remove points from the paper.

John


Current works in progress:

Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816

Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
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Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: John Citron] #1197356
05/11/09 01:43 PM
05/11/09 01:43 PM
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As others have observed and which, I believe, bears repeating, this is not to be a paper on the analysis of musical styles. Therefore I would suggest that the OP decide on a few pertinent features to compare both in the lives and in the compositions of the two composers in question, that he clearly delineate those limitations in the introduction to the paper, and that he get on with the exercise in comparing and contrasting.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx] #1197376
05/11/09 02:28 PM
05/11/09 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by xxmynameisjohnxx
So for my English class I need to write a compare/contrast essay. I'm planning to do it on Mozart and Beethoven. Does anyone here have any good sources that they might remember where I can get a good start? I of course already have wikipedia and others like that on the individual composer which I can use for the whole essay, but I was wondering if there were any that already compared Beethoven's and Mozart's music so I could get more of a reference.


Do not, I repeat, do not use Wikipedia as a source for any kind of class paper. As much as I like Wikipedia for casual browsing, it is not appropriate for this use.

As BruceD pointed out, you basically need to describe the Classical and Early Romantic styles of composition. I recommend you use a Venn diagram to help you visualize the comparisons and contrasts while you do your preliminary work. (some might call it invention)

Good luck! smile


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: rrb] #1197389
05/11/09 02:46 PM
05/11/09 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rrb
Originally Posted by David-G
With respect, I would disagree. There is as much Mozart in his music, as there is Beethoven in his.... Mozart's understanding of humanity, as demonstrated by his operas, is supreme.


I have some difficulty believing that anyone, even as monumentally gifted an individual as Mozart, who dies in his mid-thirties can have a 'supreme understanding of humanity'.

Shakespeare had written several of his most famous plays by his mid-thirties.

But as for Mozart, you only have to listen to the operas.

"Mozart ... was the first composer to perceive clearly the vast possibilities of the operatic form as a means of creating characters, great and small, who moved, thought and breathed musically like human beings." (Spike Hughes)

"Mozart is a great dramatist because the atmosphere, the action, and the character of the drama are all expressed by the orchestra. If the performers listen to the orchestra, know the orchestration, they will know what their characters are doing. The score of Figaro for instance, contains a continuous commentary on the failings, the weaknesses and the anguish of the characters." (Peter Hall)

Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx] #1197426
05/11/09 03:39 PM
05/11/09 03:39 PM
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Here are 3 suggestions for writing an academic essay of this nature:

1. Pick a subject of appropriate scope. A full comparison of Mozart and Beethoven is far too broad for a short to medium length essay. Narrowing the scope is essential. For example, one could write an entire essay on how Mozart's C Minor piano concerto 24, k. 491, influenced Beethoven. If one wanted to broaden the topic, an alternative could be how Mozart's minor key works for piano (e.g. K. 491, piano sonata and fantasy, K. 457 and 475, piano sonata in A minor, k. 310, piano concerto #20 in D minor, k. 466, Rondo in A Minor , K. 511 (this work may have influenced Chopin as well), etc.) influenced Beethoven.

The title and introductory paragraphs should properly delineate the scope of what is in the essay. The essay should not claim to be an overall comparison of Mozart and Beethoven if only a small number of their works (or a small number of incidents in their lives) are discussed.

2. Stick as much as possible to factual information which can be substantiated (e.g. the larger scale that Beethoven introduced for his symphonies, Mozart's greater facility in writing operas, his faster rate of composing pieces, Beethoven's expansion of the development and coda sections in his sonata form movements). Subjective statements such as the one earlier in this thread that "Mozart composed beautiful, perfect, very free, light hearted music in general...where as Beethoven just poured himself into his music and the broad range of emotions is just huge." detract from the essay and (as this thread indicates) are likely to cause disagreement.

3. The essay should be properly researched with good bibliographic references and citations.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: Otis S] #1197605
05/11/09 09:19 PM
05/11/09 09:19 PM
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OtisS' suggestions are very good - as are many others here.

I think it might be interesting to focus on the political and social upheavals witnessed during these 2 lives - Mozart was not only the consummate musician from an early age but was comfortable with royalty - music had a certain role in aristocratic society in Paris and Vienna - how did this change after the revolution?

Beethoven - also a great virtuoso - was clearly uneasy in society - he represents a new type of artist with a new message - closer to romanticism - closer to the artist of the 18th century such as Beaudelaire - what was the role of music after the revolution?


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: Schubertian] #1197715
05/12/09 12:14 AM
05/12/09 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Schubertian
[...]Beethoven - also a great virtuoso - was clearly uneasy in society - he represents a new type of artist with a new message - closer to romanticism - closer to the artist of the 18th century such as Beaudelaire - what was the role of music after the revolution?


If you mean Charles Baudelaire (1821-1867), he was a 19th century poet, not 18th century. Even Beethoven lived into the 19th century.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx] #1197744
05/12/09 01:37 AM
05/12/09 01:37 AM
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If I had a project like this, I would find it quite interesting to compare and contrast a composer from the baroque era with one from the romantic. Leaves much material open to write about.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: Otis S] #1197749
05/12/09 01:47 AM
05/12/09 01:47 AM
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I've heard it said that Mozart is "spirit" while Beethoven is "heart."

That could be a starting point for you.


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Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: eweiss] #1197759
05/12/09 02:09 AM
05/12/09 02:09 AM
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I was originally thinking of doing Bach to Beethoven or Chopin, but seeing as how I've put this off till last minute, it doesn't need to be to long in length, and I am already somewhat familiar with the lives of Mozart and Beethoven, this one is the most accessible comparison to me. If I were writing this for a music history or theory class I would probably choose Bach to Chopin or something like that.

And thanks for the comment Eweiss. Seems like something I could look into.


Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx] #1197764
05/12/09 02:32 AM
05/12/09 02:32 AM
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I don't think that Mozart was comfortable in society at all. As a child, it looked as though he would be part of it, or probably seemed that way to him. But in his time anyone who was not born an aristocrat could never hope to be on the same level with the "ruling class".

Beethoven, for the same reason, could never be part of the aristocracy, but he appeared to think himself above it. smile

But to the music: I find some of Mozart's late works shockingly powerful, so if we compare Mozart at 35 with Beethoven at the same age, the results can be quite surprising.


Piano Teacher
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: Gary D.] #1197793
05/12/09 05:24 AM
05/12/09 05:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,955
Orange County, CA
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Is this essay written for a lower-division writing class?

You can't really "prove" any of the "sound like" or "feeling" stuff on paper, and not at the length of a short essay. For the scope of a typical short essay, you REALLY need to narrow down your focus. But if you choose to write on a more technical topic (more to do with theory), then you can actually cite measure numbers to "prove" your point. I'm thinking about analyzing two piano sonata movements.

Here's an idea for a thesis:

As seen in the first movement of his Piano Sonata in C Major, K. 545, Mozart's melodic themes flow seamlessly from one to the next; in contrast, as seen in the first movement of his Piano Sonata in E Minor, Op. 90, Beethoven juxtaposes musical themes clumsily, with minimal attempt at smooth transitions.

And for your support paragraphs you can follow this outline:

I. Transition from Theme A to Theme B in the Exposition
A. Mozart
B. Beethoven
C. How they are similar/different

II. Transition from Theme B to Theme C (or Codetta)
A. Mozart
B. Beethoven
C. How they are similar/different

III. Transitions in the Development or Recapitulation
A. Mozart
B. Beethoven
C. How they are similar/different

IV. Conclusion

In your introduction, you probably need to define what a "smooth transition" is vs. "non-smooth transition." And go on from there.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx] #1197821
05/12/09 08:15 AM
05/12/09 08:15 AM
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Did I say 18th C, I meant 19th C of course.

I was only thinking of a parallel between Baud. and Beeth. since Baud. is often thought of as the first modern poet - the artist standing by himself outside of society and social norms looking in without feeling obligations toward church or state but only toward his muse - Beethoven saw himself more as a Prometheus I think than Baudelaire, whose art was always more inward turning - doesnt he say something in the famous introduction to FdM where he wants, through his verses, to feel superior to his contemporaries whom he despises? That would be an impossible sentiment for Mozart.

In that sense Beethoven represent something new in European culture- the bohemian artist who places artistic truth over social norms.


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: Schubertian] #1197830
05/12/09 08:43 AM
05/12/09 08:43 AM
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It's Harnoncourt, isn't it, who says that the playing of Mozart is so heavily influenced by the musical thinking of the romantic period, that we have completely lost the spirit of it and cannot appreciate how strong an impact it would have had in it's day.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: Schubertian] #1197831
05/12/09 08:45 AM
05/12/09 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Schubertian


Beethoven represent something new in European culture- the bohemian artist who places artistic truth over social norms.


You have to be from Dallas Texas to think that.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: AZNpiano] #1197903
05/12/09 11:40 AM
05/12/09 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Is this essay written for a lower-division writing class?

[...]Here's an idea for a thesis:

[etc., etc.]

And for your support paragraphs you can follow this outline:

I. Transition from Theme A to Theme B in the Exposition
A. Mozart
B. Beethoven
C. How they are similar/different

II. Transition from Theme B to Theme C (or Codetta)
A. Mozart
B. Beethoven
C. How they are similar/different

III. Transitions in the Development or Recapitulation
A. Mozart
B. Beethoven
C. How they are similar/different

IV. Conclusion

In your introduction, you probably need to define what a "smooth transition" is vs. "non-smooth transition." And go on from there.


How do you think that giving the kid a thesis and an outline is really helpful? While you're at it, why don't you just write the paper for him! frown



BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: BruceD] #1198013
05/12/09 03:21 PM
05/12/09 03:21 PM
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xxmynameisjohnxx Offline OP
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Don't worry, I didn't use that one at all. I already finished most of the paper doing just a general overview. I start with early life, then move on to composition careers, and then their late life/death. I honestly didn't have time to spend analyzing whole sonata's...the paper was due today....:P. And besides, doing a sonata analysis would've gone over my teachers head. What I wrote on is stuff she can understand and relate to.


Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx] #1198017
05/12/09 03:33 PM
05/12/09 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by xxmynameisjohnxx
[...] I honestly didn't have time to spend analyzing whole sonata's...the paper was due today....:P. And besides, doing a sonata analysis would've gone over my teachers head. [...]


[Grammar alert!]

... and I honestly hope that you, as a student in an English class, didn't form any plurals of nouns in your paper by adding apostrophe - s! The plural of sonata is sonatas, not sonata's!

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: BruceD] #1198056
05/12/09 05:06 PM
05/12/09 05:06 PM
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xxmynameisjohnxx Offline OP
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Haha I did it once by accident but caught it and fixed it. I do that by accident sometimes when typing fast and not paying attention, thanks Bruce!


Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.
Re: Comparing and contrasting Mozart and Beethoven [Re: BruceD] #1198090
05/12/09 05:53 PM
05/12/09 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Is this essay written for a lower-division writing class?

[...]Here's an idea for a thesis:

[etc., etc.]

How do you think that giving the kid a thesis and an outline is really helpful? While you're at it, why don't you just write the paper for him! frown

+1 thumb

I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who immediately had the same reaction.

Steven

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