Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum How do you teach self-discipline?

I never thought about this question before. I always assumed that self-discipline is a "skill" one acquires over time.
My 12 year old niece recently shared with me some "tragic events" going on in her life, specifically during her violin classes. She has taken lessons since age 8 or so and has done very well. But this year, things changed all of sudden and as her music became more demanding perhaps (or as she hit puberty), her practice habits suffered considerably. Apparently she showed up at her lessons recently having only practiced portions of her assignment (the "music" part) but not the exercises/etudes for the second time in a row (I suspect more). Her teacher, who has been pretty patient, decided that she needed to learn a lesson in "self-discipline" and told her that she will playing nothing but exercises for the next month. Needless to say, this did not sit very well with the young teen.
My question is does this approach work? Is it too harsh? How do you actually teach self-disicpline? Can it be taught?
I have never taught kids this age anything, but I wonder if such an approach is more likely to backfire/ How do you handle similar situations?

In some families it may work. It all depends on how the parents discipline the kids. I've had some where I knew the dynamic enough so that I could get tough with the kid. Other times, however, a gentler approach is needed. In those situations where I've had to get tough with a student (under the agreement of the parents) I have had excellent results. Otherwise, the gentler approach generally has less success. Perhaps because the parents aren't as involved in that case.

I don't worry too much about self-discipline, rather I stress focus while practicing.

I am quite frank with my students (my parents would probably be horrified if they actually ever watched their student's lesson DVD) as we discuss this subject. Most students, as they reach puberty, have a very difficult time focusing on the task at hand. For some odd reason, their focus is on social concerns and members of the opposite sex.

I tell them that I personally had a terrible time keeping my focus. I usually thought about girls about every 10 seconds. Practicing with focus was darn near impossible. This usually elicits sheepish grins, from both sexes. But it's the truth, and most kids are facing this and not having a clue how to deal with it. Now, there were a few students who didn't have this problem for one reason or another, and I hated them. This usually gets vigorous nods of agreement.

I tell them just to do the best they can. Really concentrate on the melodic line, or the pedaling, or what every problem they are trying to solve, and they may get so involved, that they can get 5 - 10 minutes of effective practice before their mind wanders off.

They also get a kick knowing their teacher practiced hours a day on total auto-pilot, thinking about every thing except the music!

Interesting observation Morodiene . If I understood you correctly, you are saying that the parents' position is more important / consequential than the teacher's approach?
John, you seem to take a more laid back approach, how often does it work?

I think that self discipline is learned over time.

Do this, this, and this, and that is the result.

or to put it another way -

Do A, B, and C, and D is the result.

So, with students, when they realize that going over that hard measure 5 times slowly will result in learning that measure correctly, there is this reward...That feeling of accomplishment and playing correctly.

And it builds from there.

When they do it for themselves at home, that is SELF discipline.

Suggestions from the teacher of 'how to do it', 'effective ways of practicing', and then students pick it up from there and carry on for the next piece in the same manner.

Best not to have a parent standing over them while they learn it for then it only becomes discipline, not SELF discipline.

I disagree with what your niece's teacher is presenting. Makes the excercises and studies a punishment not a means to a goal.

John's very brave to mention sex. I'm still trying to work out if that's all there is.

It's more a question of understanding - they are not unique and this is not a problem that no one else have ever experienced. We solve it a little at a time. Some students need more reinforcement than others, and varying the routine from week to week also helps.

I think John and I are saying essentially the same thing (except the sex part). I gauge what the dynamic with the parents is and take their lead on it. If the parents discipline, then that is a tool I can use to help them learn discipline. I was told what to do when I was young, and I wasn't scarred for life. I know I needed it because my head was in the clouds. Eventually, I learned how to "focus" as John put it.

Actually, social concerns and sex aren't the only things going on. They're just so confused about themselves at that point. Monica needs to step in at this point with lots of 'brain development' literature.

I have watched some kids really take off in the 13-15 age range because they just start to come together as maturing adults earlier than others. This can cause a real burst of effort, which produces reward, which stimulates more effort in a virtuous circle. It can leave their peers in the dust wondering what happened.

I have no idea how one can 'teach' that. Morodiene and John have shown how people can take different approaches, depending on the material they're working with (individuals and families) and the experiences they (the teachers) bring to the table.

Whether you push with a little toughness, or cajole gently, the student has to want to pick up the mantle. Some never do. That's life. If I had a formula for creating that little spark I'd write a manual and sell a billion copies! :-)

Piano Dad is right. One has to just keep trying until they get it. Some don't and they're off to college, which means they'll probably have to learn the hard way. That always concerns me, but there is only so much one can do who works with a student for 30 minutes per week.

Show the outcome of having applied self discipline, patience, and/or additional effort beyond normal and you will have created a believer.

When we see/feel/hear break throughs we are likely to notice something becoming better understood, more effective, more efficient.

What has to happen before the awareness of the new result is the big decision to do something different in approach, or to try longer, harder, turning off the old voice tape, and looking for a new attitude, new possibility, and new result.

We have to believe in ourselves to find the best way as doing the same thing over and over brings the same results.

Betty Patnude

You can demand self-discipline. You can use a "reward and punishment" system to maintain a student's self-discipline. But at the end of the day it is the student who has to show self-discipline.

Several of my good students show great self-discipline. I think it is either nature (they inherited the discipline gene from their parents) or nurture (they grew up in an environment in which the adult role models show plenty of self-discipline).

One important skill I try to teach to all of my students is organization. It is such a waste of time for students to come to lesson unprepared--forgetting books, not doing the theory assignment, etc. etc. You can tell them to put everything in a bag and sort all the worksheets in a binder, but if they don't bother to get a bag and dont buy a binder, then what do you do?

Betty says:

"Show the outcome of having applied self discipline, patience, and/or additional effort beyond normal and you will have created a believer."

Exactly what I was suggesting!

I posted a new topic on us being social animals:I only realized afterwards it was a response to this thread. Expecting people to lock themselves away so many hours a day is unnatural. We need to be aware of this and its repercussions.

Sounds like the Salvation Army to me.

Being a piano teacher myself, I would seriously tell your niece to find a new teacher!! NEVER use "punishment" in music, forcing a student to play endless exercises will make them hate music, that teacher, and possibly quit.

As with all kids growing up, there are social pressures and outside things to deal with. Her "100%" towards music right now may only be 50%.

If she needs to stop lessons for the time being, do it. Ask her to find 1 song she likes and WANTS to play, and just do that.

Let her find space and time to breath life into the music, then it will come.

Jazzed23,
with all due respect, I don't think any of us can really know what would work best for this student. Some really do need a "kick in the pants" whereas others may need encouragement and positive reinforcement. If it is a case where the student cannot devote enough time to do the work required for their level, then decisions should be made to cut back something, be it piano or something else. Having students who are too booked to even give their minds and bodies a rest is never a good thing, for sure.

I'm not saying your approach is wrong, but it may not be what this student needs. Looking back, I think that it is mostly teenage boys who need a more regimented routine to help them focus, but there have been girls who needed it too. And then there were others who benefited from lots and lots of encouragement, or even some time away. I just think telling them to drop the teacher is a bit harsh and not a decision that should be made without being there and knowing the student.

Let me add to my previous posting:

If you don't have self-discipline yourself, there is no way to teach it to another person. It will be a big enough job to make improvements in disciplining yourself.

It is quite an accomplishment to be able to self correct. Think of how many institutions and services work with those who are not the least bit responsible for their behavior and what they cause to happen in their immediate society, whether it's home, school, or work.

Without self-discipline it becomes someone else's job to set limits, accountability, and "time outs". Some of those things are the criminal justice systems, social welfare agencies, juvenile courts, school detentions. How much of these things have a good outcome?

A little self-discipline would go a long way in just about any situation, but it is mixed with having values, integrity, and a sense of responsibility to self and others.

We must have the capacity to affect self-discipline in ourselves . We have to live with the results either way.

Betty Patnude

Betty,
I learned self-discipline because I was disciplined by my parents as a child. I was held accountable for the things that I did, and when I was of age to work, I had to pay for clothes and things like that from my paycheck. Prior to that I *earned* an allowance by doing work around the home. I was a dreamy child and was not one you would peg as "self-disciplined", but I caught on later. It all came together for me in high school, and there were still areas during that time where I had a lot to learn about work ethics and practicing. I think self-discipline can be taught, through example, through being treated like a responsible person and having expectations of you that must be met. You can also give people skills to be more efficient, techniques to work hard, and rewards for when things go well. Usually self-discipline is self-rewarding too. It's not about hand-holding, it's about expecting or demanding maturity and holding the students accountable when they don't make it.

I equate self discipline with motivation. If you're motivated to do something, you have all the discipline you need.

Conversely, try teaching someone who lives and breathes piano to stop playing or to cut back playing. You can't do it.

What I'm trying to say is, it's a "personality" thing. Some have it. Some don't. I don't think motivation is something that can be taught.