Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum What's your definition of curved fingers?

I do much the same as Gary, preferring to watch and tweak instead of trying to force some kind of preventive medicine down student's throats. It's been my experience that students will naturally do what is right about 90% of the time, and fussing too much is just as likely to erode the good 90% as it is to remedy the deficient 10%.

The few exercises I do with students are taken from Matthay and Taubman, specifically Matthay's focus on tactile feedback from the key and his ideas on the role of the arm and hand in the production of sound. (Taubman's approach is more or less the same, and she has a few basic exercises that can help students understand how to accomplish these things.)

This is the problem with Internet teaching. This is not addressed to you, Betty, btw. What if what the student is doing in a certain area is natural and right? And that gets interfered with when his playing is neither seen nor heard based on the knowledge of what many students (but maybe not this one) usually do? Or what if this student is overly curved, and is taught curvature - or overly relaxed to the point of almost limpness, and then goes over toward limpness because "relaxation" is pushed by an unseeing and unhearing teacher? And would this happen between the same student and teacher in a live lesson?

And then, in extreme scenarios, if some few teachers are blindly and rigidly pedantic about rules and procedures that every student is to follow in the same way, and if some students start by having something right and a feeling for some of the elements of playing - Then the image that has come to me more than once is that of breaking the legs, providing artificial legs, a cerebrally learned replacement of what was once natural, and a disconnection of the self from the body and the music. And then, to add insult to injury, the student is to be grateful for his artificial wooden legs and robotic outwardly controlled playing. Not that following his instincts alone would to the trick either. There is a delicate balance.

When it comes to Internet learning, the responsibility belongs to the student. He or she should be aware that teachers are not omniscient gods - especially anyone who presents himself that way - nor can the teacher know what it is that you will do with the information. In a live lesson a teacher can preach relaxation, watch his student make like a rag doll, and then suppressing a giggle say, "My dear child, I did not mean that relaxed!" On the Net you might get a perpetual rag doll wondering why the sound is now so weak. Be careful, people!

Teachers might also be well advised to know that you may be perceived as .... er ... omniscient gods. Anything you say may be taken as gospel and followed religiously: imagery is intentional.

I would not be without the Internet, and have learned many things during my year or so here. What is presented here can be used in a good way or a bad way. Sometimes only part of the message comes across, and sometimes there is a clue to something else. We just have to be wise about it.

KS, you left out your "I am not a teacher of this instrument" or "I am still learning to play this instrument" caveat. Maybe it'd make a good tag line?

Your statement has nothing to do with what I wrote and as such is incomprehensible. If it's a put-down, perhaps it should be worded honestly. Believe it or not, I have approached you with respect at all times, and have also tried to learn from what you present. I cannot fathom your attitude, let alone respond to it.

My post this morning is clearly a student perspective on Internet learning, and was presented as such. If there is something you agree or disagree with, why not address it?

KS

Ok, I've gone back to my post, and see that I write about Internet teaching. I was honestly thinking of the student side of it, and not trying to tell anyone how to teach. Some of the experiences that I had as a student a number of years ago were not pleasant, and I have thought a lot about this. Since I am a teacher, it is natural for me to look at the other side of it too, and my thoughts have a way of coming out in writing at times. I did not intend to tell anyone how to teach, or reflect on any individual's teaching in what I wrote. If it came across that way, then I apologize.

I don't want to sound rude, but when did that happen? As far as I remember you last mentioned you've either got or are working toward grade 1.

I did not say I am a music teacher. I wrote that the teaching aspect tends to also grab my attention, because I am a teacher - my thoughts slip out in my vocabulary and perhaps I should be more careful with that. In regards to my teaching background, I have a B.Ed, earned my teaching certificate, have extra credentials in second language learning and LD teaching. I have taught in the public school system and one-on-one. Before choosing homeschooling for 8 - 10 years for my sons, and during, I also looked at various approaches, visited schools, talked to teachers, and observed. For this reason the teaching issues here interest me greatly, and apparently that interest has a way of slipping out. As I wrote before, I did not intend to offend, nor to offer advice.

Re: grade 1 - my practical exam was grade 1, but that is not the final grade that I studied. Because I suffered an injury my progress went rather haywire. I'm told that I am "at least at a gr. 6 level" though I would think, with holes because of history. I have no idea where I might be on piano: probably all over the place and nowhere in particular. I cannot presently access teaching, to my great regret.

In terms of theory, I passed the Advanced gr. 2 rudiments (RCM) and have begun harmony theory. That does not mean that I feel expert in the subjects that I have passed.

I do, however, regularly teach rudimentary theory to one student, and have done so for the past 8 or so months. The alternative for this student would be no teacher, and trying to figure it out alone. I am using the same text which I studied under the auspices of my teacher, and have created additional material. I do this on a volunteer basis in order to gain some experience in teaching theory, and as a way of consolidating what I have learned.

This is far removed from "definition of curved fingers" but I suppose I should answer the question.

Well, I must be honest, I don't think grade 1 students have any place telling teachers in a piano teacher's forum what they might or might not be 'well advised to know' and have personally grown very tired of dictat after dictat from someone in no place whatsoever to 'know' themselves.

Will you necessarily know how someone using the Internet in the privacy of their home will take what you have posted? There is no way of observing reaction. If I were in that situation I would welcome feedback in that area. The vocabulary, "well advised" was probably not the best - but trying to let you know that you might be on a pedestal of omniscience was an honest attempt.

Again, as above, I am not a grade 1 student.

So, as I understand it, you think I am telling you what to do as a teacher. That was not my intent. I do have a concern with how students might receive what is posted on the net, and am cautious about it myself in my role as student. That was my main thought.

None of your business, you haven't the knowledge base, that's the teachers' concern. Is there a name for 'forum vigilante'? That crap has also run its course. How many times can a poster cry wolf for chrissake?

Keystring has never misrepresented her background, qualifications or experience here. I have high regard for her contributions; even if she's not a piano teacher, her insight and perspective are remarkable.

Maybe it's time for another debate about whether participation by non-teachers is valued—or even welcomed at all—in this subforum.

Steven

One person's treasure, another person's trash. Fair dues.

That's right, and the fairness of that dictum is that it applies to all of us equally.

Steven

As far as I'm aware my 'comments in no way reflect the opinions or views of Piano Teacher's Forum'.

This topic is too important to start going ad hominem. I request that we go back on topic.

Best wishes to all,

KS

The title of the forum suggests topics, not participation requirements.

Could we at least have the requirement that declaring yourself a teacher actually means piano teacher (at least in the piano teachers forum)? It's just I feel concerned the student readers will be misled into damaging ways!

Come on Kreisler, Yes we can!

Oh, my goodness! It's getting to be feisty!

Yes, it is often problematic to me to have anyone but a teacher in the mix in the piano teacher's forum. My main interest is to co-mingle with piano teachers, as you might expect. My secondary interest is to contribute to things that pianists and learning pianists might be discussing. Both of these things are within my preparations in music teaching.

I have benefitted very much from keystrings presence in the forum, and I think many other people have, too. At the same time some of the things we've been involved with together are over the level that she is at in her piano studies, but that doesn't matter to her, she is a curious and conscientious learner. I appreciate that very much.

At the same time, sometimes we get into little "rambles, push and shoves" in the piano teaching forum because of someone posting who doesn't have a clue as to what is being said, has an agenda themselves, and just enters to put teachers in the corner, so to speak. I think overall there is a lack of respect toward teachers in the forum, so many are quick to make an insult, or to tell you that you are wrong, wrong, wrong. And, then you discover this person is in their Adult 1 book, or maybe has had lessons for a few months. That has been my experience for the past month or two. To be told off, insulted, or laughed at is not any of our dream come true.

There are a few teachers posting who I think need more training, and there are some teaching with very little training, admit it, and do it anyway, saying how much they are earning while offering only a specter of services. If money were my basic interest I could do that too. However, I believe in music education, and that is a different story.

The older, experienced piano teachers on the forum really seem to have pride and accomplishment as their highest agenda - things transpire in their studios for the highest good of all.

When I, and teachers like myself, get caught up in this under current, we are not able to communicate with our teaching associates without it being misunderstood and being offensive to others. When we take a stand and say what we think, we think we are good good, reliable advice. We say the things no one wants to hear.

Intelligence is needed on the piano teachers forum - it is the place we speak from. If it sounds like a foreign language sometimes, it is.

Keystring has a tempered presence and she is the first to thank and respect the people who add to her knowledge. She also is persistent in coming to a conclusion on a topic. As she says, it's how she approaches things, and I think she becomes content when there has been agreement and information shared in topics.

The harder situation to post in is the one where there is difference of opinion that has come to push and shove. There have been several topics which I just have to walk away from, but not without saying so. There is hope where intelligence is present, ignorance does the exact opposite.

Keystring did post about consider your sources carefully, and I join in that warning. There is a lot of information out there which just plain misleads and defeats us.

If you don't want to be a sucker, you are going to have to eliminate the jokesters, the ignorami, the irritating, and the pontificates who want to rip off a piece of your mind and impede your progress.

Tolerance? Acceptance? Or time to vote with your feet?

I've faced that decision more than once.

PS: Do I have any friends left?

Betty Patnude

I'll always give you a hug!

Who gets to decide who is irritating, Betty?

The question of who is "allowed" to post in the teacher's forum has been debated several times. The last time it was debated, IIRC, the owner of this forum weighed in and said that the teacher's forum is open to everybody. This conclusion, incidentally, was consistent with the sentiment of the vast majority of teachers who post regularly on the forum. I don't see any need to revisit it simply because Betty would prefer to toss out everybody except teachers. Oh, wait, she wants to throw out teachers who don't meet her training requirements, too.

This is an internet forum that is literally open to the entire world. As long as people adhere to the forum rules, which imo everybody posting on this thread has done thus far, you can't prevent people from posting.