Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Looking for ideas on why to/not to look at hands

Betty,
That is the clearest explanation of how to learn keyboard geometry I have ever seen.

I see you are using Cs as an anchor point for a spatial location. Are you familiar with the approach of using the feel of the black keys to get to that point? I have a link to it somewhere written by bernhard, if this is new.

Related prescription, from a book on learning to juggle: Catching is easy, as long as you throw perfectly from the other hand. So we throw from right hand to left, catch, instantly freeze, then consciously relax, and inspect position of the left hand. Then in very slow motion we move the left hand to the correct position where the ball should have landed. Then repeat. Until the ball lands precisely in the left hand, and the left hand doesn't have to make any correction at all. The juggling teachers say this process doesn't work unless the freeze step, the relax step, and the slow motion correction step are all included. If we follow with the next throw (or note) too quickly the learning is lost.

Thank you, Betty. Of course you won't mind if I travel from St. John's to Vancouver. I saw recently that I was sitting too far back and that this made my arms extend somewhat so that this motion from the elbow was compromised. I have fixed that part.

So what I am understanding is that as my hands move along the railway track it is natural for the forearm to open at the elbow and we let it happen. Then (contrary motion outward) especially as the distance becomes greater the upper arm will be naturally brought along too and must be allowed to do so. But this is different from bringing the arms in and out using the upper arms and not using the hinge at the elbow much. That is what I might have been doing to some extent.

I've been bothered for a while noticing something uncomfortable happening in contrary motion scales and wasn't quite able to pinpoint the cause and solution.

That has been a first problem, but now there are interesting exercises for orientation as well. Thank you.

KS

Oh, okay.

Sure, if the purpose is different then my conclusion (that it wouldn't matter if the behavior didn't maintain) would be invalid as well.

I don't think you've fully made your case that not looking produces better musicality though, particularly since we're talking about beginners. Perhaps you could amplify.

It would be far more natural if the piano weren't so badly engineered.

The keyboard should curve around our body instead of being straight, requiring straight line motion out of human joints designed to move in arcs.

Sounds like a patent opportunity! Great idea

Folks, geometry is of the eyes. It doesn't exist for the proprioceptive system. The next octave up may look the same to the eyes (but even that's a delusion), but for proprioception it's a whole world away. Two octaves and you're often talking serious relearning of identical passages.

Assuming kids can do rational thought, which they can't.

kbk,

That is exactly why I spoke as I did to a child under 8 years old or so, if you can imagine at that age they are playful and much teaching seems like a "game". At that age they don't yet reason, the age for comparison and relationships, pro's and con's, if and whens, is around age 9 I believe in development. Intellectualation is not for children - they tell it as it is in the first person.

If the child were older I'd say, "Look at when happens when you do this!" Then I'd ask them if it worked for them. Yes, because and I'd reiterate what the student said and add a few of my own comments to it to emphasize the outcome we found. I'd add the good for you, with so it's not going to be a problem for you. I'm glad you've discovered this today!

I think we have to make certain events memorable. It lessons are memorable that should increase the importance of doing piano to the student, don't you think. Of course, I mean memorable in a nice way.

I've even picked up my imaginary camera" and clicked a "picture" of a good thing happening: "I want to get a picture of that!"

And, if the going gets rough, I pull out my imaginery "bubble wand" and blow bubbles for a few minutes, saying, "Ooops, popped! My, that was big one! Catch it! Catch it!" Bubble blowing uses deep breaths, and sometimes kids get real shallow in their breathing, or are actually holding their breath. You've got to intervene in a way that reminds and teaches, "Can you blow a bigger bubble? Oh, look at it grow!" (Divertimento)

Who remembers what they actually did in piano lessons? I don't nothing happy or giggly anyway. But, hopefully my students will remember some of the fun.

How ever you dress it up your approach is still a rational one. The capacity just isn't there. On that tack you're as close to flogging a dead horse as it gets.

kbk,

I truly think with this one time I do the blank paper, I never need to do it again.

It becomes their idea that they don't have to look, their fingers will "know".

On to some other problem for comment, this one won't come up again.

It was learned through experience.

Kids are at their most accepting in this young age group - sometimes you get in the sandbox with them, so to speak.

That lesson about looking at your hands is over and done early in the game.

Thanks Tim!

The keyboard with white notes and black notes elevated behind them and between them, is more of a topography - like a mountain range is on world topographical maps.

I'm trying to see it as geometry but don't quite get how the meaning applies to keyboard. I wasn't very good in algebra and geometry so that doesn't suprize me that I wouldn't get it.

I do lots of orientation to the keyboard - the student's hand and the students eye separately. Here comes the mirrored D chromatic scale in contrary motion again (warning). It starts on a white key whereas the Ab starts on a black note and feels much different when playing.

Tell me about geography please.

Betty

Sounds like a patent opportunity! Great idea (curved keyboard)

Already been done.

A number of folks have tried to change the keyboard but the current configuration is derived from under a thousand years of sediment that has hardened to real stone.

On knowing where the keys are, at a point you simply own/know them as surely as you own/know the position of the brake pedal, or light switch on your bedroom wall in the dark.

Some interestiong suggestions as to how to know them. Great thread.

James

Mechanically it's not that easy to make an acoustic piano, though it can be done.

A digital doesn't have the same constraints. It will be interesting to see what happens as they continue to dominate piano sales. (for better or worse)

Curved keyboard - 1800's

Yes, geography, geometry, I'm talking about the same thing you are. I tend to think mathematically, in coordinate systems, so I probably use the wrong words.

Here's a link that maybe explains the black key approach a little bit. http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134

Let me know if it's interesting at all, I have some other of his posts saved.

To Tim, and anyone reading this topic,

Yes, I think he is very much on the right track with his 2 and 3 note groups because the fingering for all scale having black notes in them is based on the fingers that are now touching the keys in their early beginner introduction to the keyboard.

The names of the notes are not important at this point, you are simply establishing fingering skills for later.

RH: By adding one white note with thumb before the group of 2 black notes gives you B C# D# - adding one white note with thumb before the group of 3 black notes gives you E F# G# A#. To end the scale play RH 5.

It progresses very well at a slightly older age and level into all of the black key starts known to the student and the use of tetrachords are added to create a formula for major scales. Then you would develop RH first, add LH and play scales in contrary motion so that fingers were matching in use, then you would assign parallel position scales. I think contrary comes first - you may discover why at your piano as you put these ideas to the test. Like in "eureka!"

In the meantime this 23/234 black key fingering is now latent waiting in the student in both hands for the next opportunity to use it again and add to it.

Notice in the above exercise the notes were whole steps B C# D# and E F# G# A#. Notice that in the C Major Scale (this is for the teacher, not the child to notice) the two adjacent white keys are where the 3/4 degrees (and 7/8 degrees are noticably natural half steps on the piano.

You have been preparing students to do combinations of whole steps and half step in major scales. But that is not yet the next step.

Next you are preparing fingers for all half step (chromatic) movement on the piano. The best thing which gets brains working on fingering and preparing for chromatic work, is to teach the D mirrored chromatic scale in contrary motion.

Some of the key words here are:
black keys
keyboard orientation
middle d mirrored chromatic scales
rules for fingering black notes
tetrachords
fingering
centering

For an older child who has been doing well with these concepts and is about late elementary level you would add:
scale degrees
steps, whole and half
ascending/descending
parallel motion/contrary motion/unison
vocabulary building
and music theory concepts

If you search on these words, you will find that I have been writing about them since I joined PWF. These ideas are all based on my years of teaching and are part of the "book" I am writing "Piano Power". All of this relates to helping the human find their way around the keyboard in graphic presentation and in physical movement.

Again, the caution that note names and grand staff have nothing to do with this orientation.

You have to be selective as to when you wish to teach any of the above - it depends on the child, their physical abilities, their hand shape, their curiosity.

It is a pleasure to present this here as it is possible that something that I have said is a link to something you have not discovered yet. Again, my refrain is that they don't teach these parts in method books - this is the inner world of the music student you are affecting, his ability to perceive, and to act with confidence.

I hope it was not too taxing in reading about topography and orientation to the keyboard. I find it fascinating, and it is easy to teach if you have connected all the parts of the process in sequences of understanding and accomplishment.

With this background, the grand staff will be a students oyster because the orientation started within the student on how to use the keyboard with fingering skills. Now we look to the music page with which to make the music and the brain and the fingers are empowered to do the work.

This is being developed while students are making progress in their learning materials and weekly assignments - both are going on, not just the "theory" and "orientation" - simultaneously.

Betty Patnude

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
Sadly your man fails to make clear the most important aspect of his 2/3 black note exercise. It's an exercise to help beginners grasp arm weight technique. I call it birds hopping (from branch to branch to branch). As for the thumb - he didn't say how you use it at all. It's a bit like taking a baby who can't walk on an obstacle course.

It's one post out of context, by a person who has a very unusual teaching approach. I'm not really sure it's fair for you to redefine his purpose in that exercise, it may be different from how you use it.

Here is a very long thread that explains his particular teaching philosophy. Understand that I am not asserting that he is right or that anybody else is wrong. He writes very coherently and seems to have a vast knowledge of the literature. This thread is long and meanders a bit but halfway down he lists his master plan for students. If you get that far, you may see why your objection to his black key exercise is either founded or unfounded. By the way, he disappeared from the forums some time ago, dunno where he went. Intriguing approach, though, requireing daily lessons instead of weekly.

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134

Tim,

I am not trying to redefine the poster's work or ideas at all - what you read is what generates from me about my approach using the 2nd and 3rd and 4th fingers on black keys. In general, fingers 1 - 5 create a frame, and the 3 inner fingers are within the frame, so they are logical choices to play the scale work with black keys, as the inner fingers are the fingers that can extend forward very well.

I related pretty much the steps that I go through in teaching about the topic - which is fingering 2-3 and 2-3-4 on black notes, and it's great influence on later developing things in music theory, and that it's very easy and important to put these things in the beginning of lessons.

I was not trying to change his post at all, neither am I plagaring from him. I've added to his from my system (Piano Power) which I've used since the 1980's, so I don't think I am copying him.

I'm excited to see his posting about how he teaches this topic.

Please do post some more of the files you have saved that he or anyone else has written. I would read a lot more of this gentleman's postings because he is deserving of serious attention, I think. My only comment is that he has a lot of unnecessary words in his written instructions and might consider modifying them. Simplicity is best, and I have trouble with that too.

I didn't try to search for more of his posting because of the problems I have in vision - the other forum you shared with us has a black background to every page. It just doesn't work for my eyes otherwise I would be doing a lot of reading there.

Knowing 2-3-4 approach to black keys is what I do before we ever start major scales. The black note fingering is an absolutely vital area that teachers don't seem to put in elementary lessons and before scale development. It's as though it hasn't been noticed as an area of it's own that comes first in the area of keyboard orientation. Not just that there are black notes, but to access the black notes and to make them permanent choices in fingering for the future.

Now, let's talk about when the "rules" of black key fingering don't always work: in octaves, in chords, in composer fingerings specified differently. When I adapt my fingering ideas to the music page, I am never defeated by fingering because the principles of black key fingering hold true in composition. I find fingering a "given".

Overall, these fingerings work in scale work: 5 out of 12 major scales start with a black note, 6 scales starting with a white note have black notes in them, only 1 major scale does not have black notes. That's pretty indicative of the need to address fingering in scales, as it allows efficient traveling on the keyboard to get you from here to there.

Most of today's piano teaching is done with the ideas of each note has a finger based on it's location within the scale. We drill and drill on fingering without seeing the overview.

The "bigger picture" of applying fingering rules, allows us to see that fingering choices are consistant based upon the black key rules, and also based on the white keys rules which show up when you teach that:
1) In front of the two black keys are 3 white notes fingers 1 2 3; 2) In front of the 3 black notes are fingers 1,2,3,4.
3) This figuration stays with us through scales C,G,D,A,E,and RH/treble B. LH/Bass B takes on new fingering dividing the LH into 4 + 4 fingers.
4) All the previous scales were combinations of 3 + 4 fingers, the 5th finger acting as a brake.

I have no agenda is what I have posted above, it is simply one teacher (me) supplying what I know about the topic.

Please understand and forgive me for whatever you saw that promoted your thoughts about my intentions and your response to it. My intentions are good.

Now that I notice, I'm not sure who you are to, kbk? Or me?

My apology still stands.

Betty Patnude

So do I, though not so hot on the coherent bit.