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Betty, I just have to say that this made me smile more broadly than I ever had for a long, long while.

Thank you, Tar!

It's quite delightful to see kids picking up on things around them to sing or make music from. She has a vivid imagination and we well work and play at composing when there is an opportunity.

At this point in learning, songs are short and sweet.

She has a new song, melody line is 2-handed, and she will be working on playing it to play for "Marmaduke" who had his 14th birthday recently.

They have a mutual admiration society going!

I'm glad this evoked a broad smile from you. I saw that smile on her mother's face as she was listening to the development of the song - it will be a nice memory for all of us.

Betty

I agree. Although I only handle advanced students, the tedium of regimented lessons can be frustrating for a beginner if they are eager to create a sound similar to what they're pianistic goals are.
Simple ostinatos are a way to create that environment for a beginner. Anything that gets a beginning student to enjoy sitting at the piano is a worthwhile endeavor.

Exactly. My goal is to get the "passion" going. Once that happens, the rest usually takes care of itself.

YadielOMar, Etc., and Betty, it is obvious that you are jealous of Ed. He has taken a simple technique and made it beautiful. He does that with all his music and out of creativity composes a wonderful piece. I think people like you get very offended because you think music is so darn complicated that when someone like Ed shows us it's not, you have to question your own abilities at the piano; less is more!! Less is more!!!

Playing dead people's music is not something that I and many others care to do or listen to. You will see by the end of your lives, hopefully long lives, that classical is on it's way out. Re-living music for hundreds of years is not where our world is going. Our very own human consciousness and creativity is changing as we speak and the day will be soon when we begin to discover new vibrations to fit our new conciousness, and I don't believe that dead peoples music is going to be a part of that growth.

JMHO

Let's ask our friends at Piano World Forum about this, Busy Bee.

I don't yet know YadielOmar, as today was the first I had read his postings, but he/she caught and held my interest, and I don't think I've read etc's yet as I don't frequent Pianist Corner very much.

I've been around since June 2007 in the forum, mostly in the teacher's forum, and sometimes the adult beginenrs and I've posted 3743 times it says on my profile. I would think that people who have read my posts know something about who I am and what I stand for, and how and why I post. For you to tell the world I'm jealous is absolutely ridiculous to me.

I grant you your wish to stay at the level of music that Ed is offering his public, it is the only thing he talks about, that does not mean it's the only thing he knows, but we can't tell that since he doesn't participate in indepth conversations or issues, he posts toward what supports his videos and business.

It's really offensive to me when you or anyone uses "dead people" in the tone of voice and lack of respect that you do. Dead peoples work and music being preserved is an honor, and I have felt called to the beauty and history of music and the arts all of my life. I'm not alone because here we are in 2009 still being called to classics. That doesn't mean that we don't love other kinds of music too.

People evolve to different levels and interests in their lives, I have found the arena I am happiest in, and I hope you do too, but it isn't wise to limit your self to one thing too early in life, you might be missing the possibilities that could occur in your own life if you keep the musical opportunity door nearly shut.

Speak for yourself please, and don't involve YadielOmar or myself, or any other person here in your defense of Ed. Ed doesn't need defending, he does well on his own. Everyone else can speak for him or herself.

Preferances are what set us apart and distinct from each other. It's all perfectly allowable and reasonable. Every one should participate in their own lifestyle whatever that involves of their choices and interests, don't let anything keep you from it. You've made your choice, but you are also free to make other choices, in the future, too.

I would love it if people would "take" a vote on is Betty jealous or not. I'm opinionated and aggressive sometimes, but am I jealous? I want to know if there is more than one person who thinks I'm jealous of something, anything. You can do it by PM if you want.

YadielOMar and etc., what are you thinking about being called jealous?

Betty Patnude

Well, since you asked , yes, there is at least one other person who thinks your criticisms of Ed (and others on the forum) reflect some degree of jealousy, although I might be tempted to say that you come across more as being threatened, or defensive, or closed-minded, especially when you respond to any perceived criticism with such long rants.

There are many different routes to music and the study of music. Ed's approach is a valid one and serves a niche very well (and a niche that is growing steadily in size, if reports about an increase in adult beginners and retreaders are accurate). Your approach is also valid and also serves an important niche of its own. Um, live and let live, perhaps?

I think Bjones expressed it best: Simple ostinatos are a way to create that environment for a beginner. Anything that gets a beginning student to enjoy sitting at the piano is a worthwhile endeavor.

Ed, I applaud your efforts to bring the joy of music, and creating music, in people's lives. You reach people who have no interest in "traditional" lessons or the classical curriculum, and you get these people playing and making music who probably otherwise wouldn't. How on earth could that be a bad thing?

I always thought that music was about expressing feelings and emotions,(happy, uplifting, or sad) and being able to convey them to the listener, and thereby give pleasure to the audience.
This can happen at any level. From the simplest 6 year old's compostition, to the greatest masters who ever lived.
Any exercise or technique, that can encourage and inspire a love of a musical instrument, be it simple, or advanced, should never be ignored.
On the subject of dead composers, all I can say is that if I could compose just one piece, that people continued to play, and enjoy, long after I am dead, then I would consider that I had a life well lived.

Busy Bee,

like i've said before. I've noodled around with stuff like that in highschool. My point is that what ed is doing is probably don't fit the needs of most people here and that its important that he finds a market/audience more suitable for this kind of teaching method.

I remember ed making a negative comments when a jazz pianist was offering free online lesson here, calling it a 'shameless promotion' and yet he is offering us free piano lessons... that was part of the reason i wanted to know the motivation before posting this material.

"classical is on it's way out"

wow, lets toss away Homer, Virgil, and Shakespeare while we are at it.. thats the stupidest thing I've heard in a long long time..

I think his efforts are definitely worthwhile and if I taught beginners, I wouldn't hesitate to teach them the same way in an effort to get them playing, get them making a sound that's comparable to many things they hear and want to emulate while also giving them the "traditional nuts and bolts" method for essential theory.
Most beginner's exercises have a student playing things that have no real musical bearing on what they like or what they want to emulate.
Ed's program gets their hands and minds working at the piano with a high level of enthusiasm becaue real music is being created and they're the ones creating it... very, very important.
This type of student will have an extremly low drop out rate because when they go to the piano, it's out of desire and love to play rather than approaching it with only dread, not seeing the forest for the trees because the traditional courses have them sweating it out with basics for months before creating a "professional" sound is accomplished.

Kudos to Ed for perfectly understanding the expresive needs of a beginning pianist. get them playing and keep them playing. have them want to sit at the piano and everything ele will fall into place. Ed understands this as well as anyone and his ideas are totally valid as well as right on the money.

Ed explained when I called him out on that.
I do wish Dave Frank was still posting here. Dave's a great player and probably one of the few pianists on the planet coming from the same direction as I am, at the same approximate level!

I have an impression that this thread has become a discussion about the difference between the "classical" and the "modern", the "fun-loving" and the "serious", the "beginning" and the "experienced". I had rather think that Ed's earlier post:

"Isn't the world big enough for both?"

summed it up nicely. We all seem to agree to differ. Look at this realistically, has anyone changed their view point ever since this thread started? Although of course there is anything wrong with that, it's ugly when things get personal.

If we're not learning anything from this thread (not even how two chords create a rich full sound on the piano), at least we can refrain from harming ourselves and others. I'm sure we've all arrived here with goodwill and not poised to evoke personal attacks. Let's keep it that way. Now play the piano: classical, jazz, or new age, whatever you like!

One man's ugly is another man's enlightening. You can really learn alot about someone when you haul out the manure catapults.

Wrong. One man's ugly is the same man's enlightening. I just hadn't quite grasped an opportunity to learn emotional endurance as well as discuss piano in this forum


This reminds me of the Amtal Rule in Dune: "Only when an object was pushed beyond its limits would its true nature be seen"...

Etcera, and you don't think saying something like,

"My point is that what ed is doing is probably don't fit the needs of most people here and that its important that he finds a market/audience more suitable for this kind of teaching method"

is stupid.

I didn't realize you can speak for the "people here". Hum...how many followers do you have?

I think what ed is doing is perfectly valid, and we have *all* skill levels here at PW, so whether or not it's useful for "most" readers here, it's probably useful for some. And I'm also sure there are quite accomplished pianists who haven't improvised before who would find it useful - there was a post in a thread in the teachers forum about that particular situation just recently. I certainly use an "ostinato" pattern in the left - mine happens to be a basic oom-pah and bass runs - and do what improvising I do in the right hand.

So - whatever works. If Betty's student, or anyone else, learns to do some improvisation by making up a sentence and using its rhythm for a tune, I'm sure that works. If they use ed's ostinato left-hand, I'm sure that works. One of the things I like about ed's method (and it's not original with him, nor does he suggest that it is - he just illustrated in this video what can be done with it) is that it seems to me it is more directly related to one's ears - to primarily what one is hearing, rather than starting with something a step away from sound. While most beginning attempts may have pretty random sounds, after some reiterations/experimentation one can begin to appreciate the sound directly, rather than translating from the spoken word first. And for me, the actual music is the sound. The sound is primary. But again, I'm pretty sure both approaches work for some people.

YMMV.

Cathy

...of which an oom-pah is the basis not only for polkas and rags, but for stride piano as well! A stride left hand can be characterized as an oom-pah, which is everpresent in Chopin and others of his ilk.

99% of rock and roll and blues piano are left hand ostinato patterns.

jotour

The confusion here is, did Ed post this material to 1) actually help people who are in need of these kind of help? or 2) to have other teacher evaluate the value of his method? I understand what ed is doing can be helpful, but so far that comments i read have been about how it would be helpful for 'someone else' with less experience.

so if ed intended to do the former, isn't it better for him direct this information to where its more relevant?

Also I can sympathize with betty's point of view too. i am not a classical pianist, I understand how much refinement, creativity, passion and expression goes into playing a piece of classical music, and I appreciate that. In some ways its natural that a teacher would want a student to go beyond the basic , because the rewards from that kind of challenge is far greater and profound and you'd be missing out on what music can really offer you.

Maybe what Betty and other wanted to see is how this exerecise can lead, and inspire people to taken on greater musical challenger later, a way to develop and deepen this rudimentary ideas

and it depends on the person, but some people will be curious enough to figure what else you can do with om-pah and find ways to it more interesting. It could mean learning/imitating stride or analyzing how chopin/brahms om-pahed in their composition and figure out how you can use them on your improv .. i think a lesson of that kind would be very helpful to me and many others who has some musical experience.

Well, etcetra, ed posted this in the "non-classical" thread. I'd think that if he was primarily interested in teacher evaluations he'd post in the teachers forum. On the other hand, here in non-classical he'd be reaching many folks of varying abilities who are interested in - voila! - non-classical, improv, whatever. And many folks from the ABF check in here, as do folks who seldom or never visit the ABF. So since his first post didn't say anything about other teachers I figured it was for folks looking for ideas about non-classical music. His thread title, I guess, could have been a little more specific that the post was about improv, but - lots of us read it regardless of its title.

I'll reiterate - both ed's and Betty's ideas will work for some people, and some will prefer one or the other. But I don't think the idea that posters already know what ed had to offer is quite an accurate statement. And ed specifically stated that this is a place to start - it would be really difficult, I think, to go into every ramification of the idea in a single thread, much less a single post

And yes, you might be more interested in stride techniques, and others might also. But that doesn't negate the fact that some posters might find good ideas in ed's original post.

You might look at Homespun tapes instruction videos for stride and ragtime ideas. I have a couple that I thought had some good ideas. Also, Judy Carmichael's You Can Play Stride Piano, at www.musicbooksnow.com would probably keep you busy at your level

Cathy