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It's true, James. Thanks! And the other 2 C's sitting inside the 5-line staff are like mirror images. One sitting in the second space from the top of the trebble clef, the other sitting in the second space from the bottom of the bass clef. We got quite a few land marks now.

Jeff, credit where credit is due. Rocket88 posted that first, not me.

One thing strikes me and I have already mentioned this. (and Another credit) If the collective and colaborative knowledge of PW had ever been in a book, we would have a lot more players than now exists. (It would be a pretty big book) I have only been active at PW for a couple of months. It has brought some very useful information to me and a little dusting off as well. All to my benefit.

PW may succeed where Coke failed (like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony). But of course here we want to let the world in on the harmony of making music at the piano.

James

Hello Connie

I don't think that you need help, as much as you need time and patience. I am in the same situation as you, I started to learn to read music when my little girl started her piano lessons. I have really come a long way in two years. I have had neither more nor less difficulty than her.

Still I'd like to add my 2 cents, or my two sense, ha ha!

cents #1) Adopt the french names for the notes: do, ré, mi, fa, sol, la, si. These names are so beautiful, and give a deeper meaning to each note. Each note has its name, just like your children. You have to talk and think affectionately of your notes, so call them by their names.

I can add that, once again like you, I am an American living in Europe, and today I am perfectly at ease with these names and it is a, b, c and so on that seem foreign.

I believe that these names have an ancient significance, although I don't know much about that. Like "sol" which means the sun of course (not a needle pulling thread!) A piece written in the key of "sol" -- in G major -- was to reflect the warmth and power of the sun, the basis of all life, (of god maybe, I don't know) the resolution of all dissonnance or tension, like the 6th and last suite for cello by Bach.

As I say, I don't know much about that. But I think that it is not an accident that the G is the note chosen to place the clef, this note under the name "sol" had a great symbolic importance.

cents #2) Start with the simple idea that there is only one staff: a big staff of 11 lines.

Middle c, or "do" is on the middle line. The grand staff that is used for the piano, with the bass clef below and the treble clef above, is in fact nothing more than just that ... an 11-line staff, with a big space between the 5th and 7th lines to facilitate reading for the two hands.

The line above the f-clef and the line below the g-clef, are really the same line: they are the middle line, the 6th line, of an 11-line staff.

cents #3) Instead of memorizing notes, habituate your eye to recognize intervals: seconds, thirds, fourths and so on. The only notes that you need to memorize are the "landmarks" as someone else has already said, that is, c (or "do") and g (in the g-clef) and f (in the f-clef).

Start with seconds: that is, the notes above and below each "landmark" note.

Then thirds: if the "landmark" is on a line, then so are the thirds; if the landmark is between two lines, than so are the thirds. You will very quickly be able to recognize them.

And so on.

There is an excellent little book widely used in France that develops this method, called "Manuel Pratique" by Georges Dandelot. It is for reading music, it isn't a piano method book. I don't know if it is translated into English or Italian. The "Manuel Pratique" dates from 1928. There is an updated edition, but many teachers say that it is no good. The old edition, which is still in print, is the only one to get.

I am curious if others on the forum know this book, or this method. Perhaps there are other books that develop along the same principles.

Landorrano, the choice of using solfege names (do re mi) might not be practical if someone is living in parts of the world where C,D,E is used. As soon as you do Internet research and participate in discussions you will have to be familiar with letter names anyway - You would have to be fluent in both (which some of us are). I agree that the names have more personality then letter names. Another thing you should be aware of when discussing in the international community, is that there is "fixed do" (which is what you are using), as well as "movable do" which has a different sense and gives names to pitches for different reasons. You don't have to learn these other systems: just be aware of them so that the odd discussion won't be confusing.

"Sol" meaning "sun" is a beautiful image, and I'm inclined to adopt it myself. The real meaning behind the names is less poetic. A number of centuries ago there was no written music and singers had to memorize every song by hearing it. A scholar named Guido d'Arezzi came up with a system, and he gave a name to the notes of a scale. He used an existing chant that was in Latin which climbed up the scale every few notes. The first word syllable used to be "Ut".

The song was a Hymn to St. John the Baptist
UT queant laxis REsonare fibris MIra gestorum FAmuli tuorum, SOLve polluti LAbi reatum, Sancte Joannes.

There was no "ti" or "si" because only 6 notes were used.

It translates as:
"That thy servants may freely proclaim the wonders of the deeds, absolve the sins of their unclean lips, O holy John."

I like the idea of the sun for sol better.

This sounds very interesting.

KS

This sounds very interesting.

KS

Just broke away to look at Amazon. $79.00 for an original edition and that is in French. Geez, wish I could have spent another couple of months in France to practise the language and absorbe the culture.

James

keystring ... I know you're right about the do-re-mi ... but I'm sure glad I don't have to speak Latin to play the piano!

What you explain, keystring, is very interesting. I had never heard about this.

Still, I would think that there is a determination in the choices of these words, I don't believe that in the middle ages a simple anagram would have been made to help memorize a scale or the names of notes, like "Do: a deer, a female deer, ray: a drop of golden sun." Everything was filled with simbolic meaning or linked to religious or mystical conceptions. No accident that Sol comes from solve meaning absolve, and the note or the key Sol were surely imbued with a sense that I think is not so far from what I state above.

Not that I want to defend what I say. I admit to knowing really nothing about all of this. But what you explain seems to vaguely corroborate what I said, instead of contradict it.

Also, I'm not so quick to believe that there was no written music before the year 1000. Or that the notes had no names. But that is beside the point.

Anyways, my idea is not original. I gleaned it on the film of Rostropovitch playing the Bach suites, which I saw over 10 years ago. He speaks about the choice of Bach of the key of Sol major for the last suite. I think that if someone like Rostropovitch speaks that way, it is not denuded of truth.

Whether Connie should or shouldn't use the do ré mi nomenclature, well obviously that's up to her. If she was in Germany or in Nebraska I wouldn't have spoken about that. She is, however, living in Italy. It's a way to have a fresh point of departure. And if she is going to turn to a teacher there where she lives she'll have to speak latin as Horwinkle says. And she ought to find a teacher, it would be a pity not to.

I'd like to know what you think, Connie.

Finally, $79 for the Dandelot, there must be a mistake. It sells for around 13 or 14 euros at music shops in France.

Landorro, if you are truly interested in that side of things, I highly recommend the book that has given me my first insights. Believe it or not, I have only started learning the history of music less than a year ago, when I realized that I knew almost nothing about anything, and that really bothered me. I guess I'm going to go off on a tangent here.

I was given "Music in the Western World: A History in Documents" by P. Weiss & R. Taruskin, publ. Thomson Learning. This isn't the usual academic book - I suspect it's almost a companion book for people learning music history. This book takes you through time from the Greeks to the 21st century in 500 pages. You get a snapshot of the various eras, and you read excerpts of what people wrote and thought at that time - you enter their mindset. Meanwhile there is also a narrative describing things. I found it perfect for someone wanting to enter music in some depth, but starting from knowing nothing.

For what you are writing, the philosophical sides would probably interest you. Also how music was perceived. It would answer some of the things you have written above, which are hard to respond to without sticking in lots of background information.


I had not noticed. Italy uses the Solfege names Do Re Mi. International forums use C D E so it's good to have some familiarity with both.

In case it's of interest, music in the Middle Ages was simply something you memorized, and having names for notes or representing them had not been thought of, so no anagrams. Learning music was laborious and took years because you had to copy somebody else. Guido D'Arezzi invented a system of names, Ut Re Mi Fa .... which were not pitch names but simply the 1st, 2nd, 3rd note of any scale being used at the time. He assigned locations of these notes on his hand, so that people could learn a song simply by watching him point to areas of his hand:
Guidonean Hand
This idea changed a basic reality for people, who were blown away by the idea that you could sing a song you had never heard before by following notes represented visually. The "reality" that they were living was changed - it is an awe inspiring realization.

To add to what is known about Guido d’Arrezzo -
Pronounced: (gwee'-doh dar-et'-tsoh)
Born: c.990 – Died: May 17, 1050

We have to thank Guido d’Arrezzo, a renowned monk, choirmaster and music theorist whose inventions revolutionized music pedagogy, for the development of music reading and writing.

In 1025 he successfully demonstrated his methods and is credited with perfecting the staff system of musical notation which is still in use today. His innovative teaching methods brought him lasting fame.

The origin of the MAJOR SCALE
What is now known as “do-re-mi” was based on a Latin hymn called Ut queant laxis.
Ut (Do) Re Mi Fa Sol La

Guido formulated the concept of a scale pattern comprising six notes where the interval between each syllable is a whole tone except for the one between Mi and Fa which is a half step. This is the beginning of our Major Scale system onto which the 7th and 8th degrees were later added. The syllables from the hymn were used to identify the fixed pitches of the scale to allow singers to learn melodies more quickly and accurately In time "do" was used instead of "ut" and "ti" was added.

The first two letters were taken from the first words of each line.
UT queant laxis
REsonare fibris
MIra gestorum
FAmuli tuorum
SOLve polluti
LAbii reatu

THE HYMN TO SAINT JOHN THE BAPTIST
(The ambitus is C to A or DO to LA)
UT QUE-ANT LA-XIS
C D F DE D

RE SO-NA-RE FI-BRIS
D E C D E E

MI RA GES-TO-RUM
E G E D E DE

FA MU-LI TU O-RUM
F G A G FDD

SOL VE POL-LU-TI
G AEG F G D

LA BI-I RE-A-TKUM. SANC-TE JO-HAN-NES
A G A F GA A G F D C E D
(Aligning is very difficult here/please resource the hymn on your own)

“GUIDONIAN HAND”
Guido made another invention to help choirs sight-sing by using the “Guidonian Hand” where a note is assigned to each fingertip, joint and knuckle of one hand.

The important differences are listed here including "fixed pitch". They were fixed pitch names, not merely relative to each other.

Thanks to those who've shared their slant on knowing which staff position is which note on the piano. Some of them were new to me, and I always like different perspectives.

R0B - those are pretty nifty graphics to whip up!

landorrano - the syllables themselves came from the hymn, as keystring and Betty report, and in that sense they are a mnemonic like "do a deer." It may be, though I haven't read anything about it so I can't say, that the hymn was chosen for a specific symbolic reason. I just haven't seen any evidence that is so. I think you are right, tho, that very much in the middle ages, including music theory, was imbued with symbolism that pointed to things greater than the everyday.

I really liked keystring's use of red lettering that point out where the syllables of do-re-mi come from. Do you have to use the Full Reply Screen to do that?

Betty, I think that was much better than your recent posts in the "reading music" thread - the research is careful and the reporting sticks to the known facts. And you layed it out in a much better format than I've seen you use before. I wouldn't quite say he "perfect[ed] the staff system of musical notation which is still in use today" since the 5-line treble and bass staves, and the "grand staff" as we know it today, didn't come directly from Guido, but were developed later. He was responsible, however, for having the spaces in between the lines of the staff representing pitches, as well as the lines themselves representing pitches.

Interesting thread.

Cathy

Thank you for adding to my information, Betty. The Guidonian hand is illustrated in the link in my post above yours. Here are the notes to the hymn:
Hymn that gave solfege syllables

We learn more here: Article on Guido D'Arezzo

Originally there were only four lines because the ambitus (range) of the music only spanned 6 notes. Previously two lines had existed, a red line for F and a yellow line for C. Guido added two more lines, and invented the idea of making the spaces between the lines count, which is why today we memorize the FACE for spaces, and EGBDF for lines.

This also explains our clefs. The bass clef is a stylized F of the old writing system and marks F3. We do not use the C clef for piano music, but it exists. Our treble clef was a stylized G, and there is an historical reason for the use of G as well.

keystring - the link to the melody of the hymn was great. Can't you just hear the chant in your head as you read it? We are fortunate here in Santa Fe that some of the monks from Christ in the Desert Monastery give recitals so we can hear this haunting music, and I have some LP's (you know, "vinyl" ) of chants that I like a lot, too.

Cathy

Cathy, we must have been writing at the same time. Yes, I got the red lettering by using the full reply screen. Colour choices appear as a rainbow underline. We can also do sizes, strikethroughs....

Addendum: Lucky you in regards to the monks.

We have to stop writing at the same time.

WOW

yes we do

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Cathy

Hi, Cathy. You did not mention me.

Jeff - I thought you were in the "those who have shared their slant" cohort But a thank you to you specifically

Cathy

There is something interesting about that hymn. If you sing it, the way it ends on "re", you would want that re to be final as if that was the tonic, and it was in a minor mode. It does not sound incomplete as you would expect ending on that note. Is it Dorian? Cathy, you are light years ahead of me - what can you tell?

The boy is happy now.

Have a good evening.

Jeff