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#117977 - 01/06/09 06:23 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 646
Glenn Treibitz Offline
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Glenn Treibitz  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 646
Los Angeles/Burbank
We do get some wacky posters here. I won't even attempt to legitimize the rather ignorant negative comment made on this thread toward the products I proudly represent.

Larry Fine was not god in 1994 and he is not god now! Larry Fine is not JD Powers and Larry Fine is not consumer reports. His books have nothing scientific about their methods, he's often criticized for his methodology and for his opinions which are sometimes controversial. Recent Mason and Hamlin ranking comes to mind. Larry Fine is a piano tech who writes opinionated books. His books serve a valuable purpose in educating people to some good information peppered with a lot of subjective opinion. He is basically a critic of the piano business as a film critic is a critic of films. How many times has one seen a film the critics disliked and liked it? The same is true for pianos which we all know are highly subjective.

Larry Fine certainly does not see the large amount of pianos on a daily basis that those of us in the business for many years see. Over the last 29 years I've personally sold thousands of pianos. I ran a company that was selling 3 thousand pianos a year. Currently the Hollywood Piano rental piano division has pianos from EVERY company in it's pool. Literally hundreds upon hundreds of pianos. I can tell you the Korean pianos in our rental pool from the late 80's are aging well. The regulation holds well and the tuning stability is rock solid. We have a great many Young Chang model E101's. They play well and go back out on rent the minute they return. In examining pianos in our rental pool by the two Korean companies I can say they both keep tune well over time. The regulation and the feel of the Young Changs holds up better over time on 20 year old pianos. I feel strongly that the pianos made by both Young Chang and Samick today can stand with anything made and represent good values in the marketplace.

One thing comes to mind about Japanese pianos. The first ones shipped here had their problems too which were corrected. That has been the cycle of pianos arriving in the US for the first time from all of the Asian countries be it Japan, Korea, Indonesia or China.


Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,
Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Casio,Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai
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#117978 - 01/06/09 06:27 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Dec 2008
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ThreeBees Offline
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ThreeBees  Offline
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Would you buy a piano from a guy who attacks Larry Fine?

#117979 - 01/06/09 06:43 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Nov 2008
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JustAnotherPianist Offline
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JustAnotherPianist  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
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United Kingdom
Of course!
Larry Fine is just a technician like any other. I don't even know if he's a first class concert tech or not-maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
He had the good sense to write a book at the right time, and now he's rich and famous!

It doesn't make his word gospel.

#117980 - 01/06/09 06:46 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 179
Mr. Kia Offline
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Northeast, USA
Maybe.


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#117981 - 01/06/09 08:33 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jun 2007
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Vince in Vegas Offline
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Vince in Vegas  Offline
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Las Vegas
Excellent post Glen Triebitz! I found Fine's book a really good tool for educating neophites like myself BUT he is indeed not Consumer Reports or JD powers. Do pianophiles really want a Consumer Reports like study of pianos?

#117982 - 01/06/09 08:49 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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ThreeBees Offline
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Some salesman can sell snow to Eskimos and sand to Arabs. By the tirade above Mr. Triebitz you might be one of them.

#117983 - 01/06/09 08:52 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Sep 2006
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rocket88 Offline
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rocket88  Offline
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ps...Consumer Reports is not god either, although they would like you to believe they are infalliable and unbiased. Google "consumer reports bias"...for another opinion.


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
#117984 - 01/06/09 09:04 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,298
Norbert Offline
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Norbert  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,298
Surrey, B.C.
I am a great admirer of Larry Fine myself -- think of it - he's got an almost impossible job to do....

By the same token Larry is virtually unknown in Europe and many other parts of the word where also a lot of pianos are selected and bought by a large group of more or less sophisticated customers.

For me, the interest has always been to which extent Mr.Fine will 'upgrade' those pianos which we personally have come to believe being undervalued at a given point in time showing often great potential for moving up the scale later in the future.

We had 3 this year alone - that is 3 out of 47 others - so our 'guessing' hadn't been too far off.

Let's not forget, everybody needs to do a bit his/her own 'guessing' making a hopefully well based decision in the end - before a piano as just once again upgraded stock may just have become a bit too expensive down the line.

Just imagine what an Estonia will cost should it suddenly find itself in tier 1 something, or a Brodmann grand in tier 3A, or a H.....

Norbert :p


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#117985 - 01/06/09 10:42 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 646
Glenn Treibitz Offline
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Glenn Treibitz  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 646
Los Angeles/Burbank
It's sad that Piano World sometimes sees personal attacks from anonymous posters who can not articulate their frustrations any other way. That's one reasons some of the country's dealers are no longer active.

My respectful comments about Larry Fine simply said his book is a valuable tool, it's not scientific, and not to be taken as the word of god. I've met Larry and like him a great deal and he would be the first to agree that his book is not the gospel. My comments were made to make one think. Just because something is in print does not mean it is fact. There are alot of opinions out there and one is not more valid than another. The decision making process entails gathering information from many sources, processing it, and then if one is capable of it, making up their own mind.


Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,
Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Casio,Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai
#117986 - 01/07/09 02:02 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 224
TheCaz Offline
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TheCaz  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 224
Simi Valley, CA
Threebees writes:
Quote
Some salesman can sell snow to Eskimos and sand to Arabs. By the tirade above Mr. Triebitz you might be one of them.
Threebees,

How did you know that Glenn used to sell snow to Eskimos? It was Grade AAA Super White, which they use for making soundboards in the snow pianos they make for their winter snow sculptures. Its shipped to them from Eastern Canada.

While you can only play the snow pianos until the Summer thaw, they sound almost as good as a C1 or U1.

I was playing on one the first time I saw the Northern Lights. They were like greenish whispy clouds that float mysteriously in the sky. The Eskimos have a single word for them in Inuktitut, which roughly translated means, "The souls of our dead relatives who have come back to visit us."

Maybe you can go visit with them as well ...

#117987 - 01/07/09 05:45 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
theJourney Offline
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theJourney  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
Gonna party like its nineteen ninety four! laugh laugh laugh

The day the earth stood still.

According to the 1994 consumer report I should consider buying a Detroit built Oldsmobile today.

Given that :

a) Larry Fine's book put out today and in 1994 is one of subjective rankings based on:
- unscientific and statistically invalid (small, incomparable) samples of in turn subjective opinions of technicians and
- a process of give and take consensus building combined with the occasional provocative changes to sell more books;

and

b) internet is basically a post-1995 phenomenon that has dramatically changed the amount, quality and availability of information about piano brands.

One could be forgiven for questioning if it has been really just the quality of these pianos that has improved over the last 15 years or in fact the quality of factual information over these pianos...which Fine was forced to follow.

#117988 - 01/07/09 07:03 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 23
ThreeBees Offline
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ThreeBees  Offline
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Yes, Mr. Treibitz, you actually did complement Larry Fine saying "His books serve a valuable purpose" while at the same time completely contradiction some of his strongest points in effect calling him an idiot. One of Larry Fine's strongest points is that the Samick and Young Chang pianos of the 1980s are of highly mediocre quality, in effect junk. You completely contradict this saying they are great.

It is a true salesman's skill to make completely contradictory statement sound like perfect sense. I stand in awe of your skill.

You did call Larry Fine incompetent, however.

#117989 - 01/07/09 07:07 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
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torrance, CA
'Highly mediocre' could have different interpretations, none of which would mean junk.
Junk is something of no value...which reminds me of you.

Why don't you start a new thread....."Posting members that should be ignored?" I have an idea whose name would top the list. laugh


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#117990 - 01/07/09 07:12 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,642
Furtwangler Offline
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Furtwangler  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,642
Danville, California
ha laugh

#117991 - 01/07/09 07:19 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
mdsdurango Offline
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mdsdurango  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,755
Durango Colorado
It's times like this that I think of Adrians (ABJ) signature line. thumb


WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
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#117992 - 01/07/09 08:31 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 646
Glenn Treibitz Offline
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Glenn Treibitz  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 646
Los Angeles/Burbank
Hey there Mr. or Ms. ThreeBees.

Don't put words into my mouth and don't misquote my posts in the distorted and vile way that you have! Any intelligent person reading my posts will see that your characterizations of my words are totally off base.

Your tone in general is not a positive addition to this online community.


Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,
Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Casio,Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai
#117993 - 01/07/09 09:48 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,044
pno Offline
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pno  Offline
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♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
Quote
Originally posted by ThreeBees:
Would you buy a piano from a guy who attacks Larry Fine?
Huh?! Since when Larry Fine has become God and could not be criticized? Do you worship him?

As a consumer all I care is what price and service a dealer can offer to me. I am not going to pay a premium just because the dealer sings praise to certain character of no interest to me.


♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE
#117994 - 01/08/09 12:10 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 111
WILLIAM C. HAUGHT Offline
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WILLIAM C. HAUGHT  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 111
WHEELING, WV
Quote
Originally posted by ThreeBees:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CozyWriter:
Hmmm... I'm curious as to the context of that. Are you basing those brand reviews on opinion or fact?

Larry Fine is the author of "The Piano Book" which has rated piano brands for more than the past 20 year and is the only such book available.

In the 1994 edition Larry Fine completely trashed Samick and Young Chang as junk and lauded Yamaha as "superb, virtually perfect, rather spectacular."

Larry Fine on Samick: "Samick entered the US market in the late 1970s ... These first pianos reacted very poorly to the climatic extremes of North America ... with wooden parts warping, cracking and binding. Many of them had to be sent back to Korea. Throughout most of the 1980s Samick pianos were very erratic in quality. Many were plagued with problems, requiring hours of repair and adjustment by the dealer. ... Although most technicians who were interviewed at that time condemned these pianos, some who were given latitude in servicing them and who were very experienced with them said they could be made into satisfactory instruments."

So unless you pay big bucks to rebuild the Samick junk its worthless.

Larry Fine on Young Chang: "The first Young Chang pianos to enter this country (US) in 1978, fell apart, as did all other Asian pianos before them, due to inadequate seasoning of the wood for our climatic extremes. Many of these pianos were sent back to Korea. Throughout the 1980s, Young Changs continually improved and by mid-decade, some technicians considered them to be satisfactory for casual or less serious use. However, the quality control was still quite inconsistent and some pianos had problems required a great deal of repair and adjustment by the dealer. ... improvement continues, but perhaps at a slower rate. ..."

And it goes on like that for several paragraphs, I am too lazy to type it all. In other words, Larry Fine says as of 1994 Young Changs and Samick are JUNK JUNK JUNK.

Larry Fine on Yamaha: "Yamaha has always had a reputation for superb quality control and virtually perfect preparation of the pianos in the factory. This is still essentially so, but with just a little less finesse than before, particularly in the American-make instruments. ... Technicians are enthusiastic about servicing Yamaha verticals, especially the uprights, which are considered rather spectacular pianos. ... "

If Young Chang and Samick finally learned to make proper pianos they did so in less than the last 15 years when Yamaha has been making the finest pianos for more that 100 years.
WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

First of all, with due respect to Larry Fine, who has made much more of his income from his book than in the piano business, using him as the ultimate authority to a dealer like Glenn or anyone else is laughable.

If you take each issue, year by year and compare the opinions, they change, as do the way that each manufacturer makes their pianos.

I can tell you that if you went for consumer help in a book written in 1950, the Studebaker was a great deal! A little later in that decade, the car that everyone should buy was the Edsel. Remember the Ford Pinto? Great deal, great gas mileage and rated top in it's class. Later they started blowing up on the freeway in flames. Just one example....

As far as the names you mentioned, who are you and what experience do you have to degrade those pianos? Are you a tech? Are you a dealer? Are you a poser? With 30+ years in the business, I, along with Glenn, who certainly does not have to explain his merchandising in his store to you, would not put my name on anything claiming that a particular complete line of pianos were boxes that make noise.

For the person that asked the question, I would say go try out all the pianos and see what feels right for your ear, your touch and your budget. Then, buy it! If you are foolish enough to take the word of a Larry Fine fan, you will be more lost than you are right now.

One more little tidbit on this subject of Mr. Fine. He acquires the thoughts of many people to come up with his references in his books. Do you really think that he, himself, examines all of these pianos and then writes this? How foolish of you.

Respectfully and with apologies to Glenn T. for being thrown in the mud after decades of a highly respected career in this business. Sorry Glenn, there is one in every crowd.


WILLIAM C. HAUGHT, President/CEO, TMU, Inc. a National Marketing Company servicing the piano, furniture and floor covering industry. Retired President of Broadway Piano Company of Manhattan. 30 + years experience in retail sales and management.
#117995 - 01/08/09 05:27 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,523
Ken Knapp Offline
Ken Knapp  Offline



Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,523
Pennsylvania
Quote
Originally posted by ThreeBees:
Yes, Mr. Treibitz, you actually did complement Larry Fine saying "His books serve a valuable purpose" while at the same time completely contradiction some of his strongest points in effect calling him an idiot. One of Larry Fine's strongest points is that the Samick and Young Chang pianos of the 1980s are of highly mediocre quality, in effect junk. You completely contradict this saying they are great.

It is a true salesman's skill to make completely contradictory statement sound like perfect sense. I stand in awe of your skill.

You did call Larry Fine incompetent, however.
I hate to do this in open forum, but you have your PM's disabled.

Let's tone it down a couple of notches. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but let's not force them on everyone. Let's be courteous too.

Ken


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
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#117996 - 01/08/09 10:03 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 467
Tweedpipe Offline
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Posts: 467
I must agree that there are very wacky posters here.
The adage ‘empty vessels make most noise’ certainly comes to mind reading BeeThrees (?) rambling comments.
Is it not possible that he/she is an imposter on this forum masquerading under the cover of a scriptwriter for an argument clinic. Who can forget his/her classic masterpiece as follows:-
Anyone For An Argument


Currently working on:-
C Major scale (r/h only - starting with the pinkie finger)......

Dear Noah,
We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5.
Yours sincerely,
The Unicorns



------------------------------

#117997 - 02/24/09 08:13 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7
premant Offline
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premant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7
florida
i bought a sc jung digital and my friend played it, she is steinway artist, and it sounded great for $1500 better than expensive roland


ron anderson
#117998 - 02/24/09 09:52 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
apple* Offline
apple*  Offline


Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
edit


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#117999 - 02/24/09 10:56 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 851
tanjinjack Offline
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tanjinjack  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Malaysia
LOL, I just thought I missed a highly discussed thread but in fact it was the old thread that I have participated before.
Interesting to re-read the little flame war caused by ThreeBees. laugh

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