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#117947 - 01/02/09 05:31 PM Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Dec 2008
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musicxfreakk Offline
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Texas
I've been looking at some pre owned uprights, and i'm wondering, what are some brands that i should definelty stay away from??
And also, some cheap priced pianos really stunned me.
Such as, alot of Baldwins, Pearls And River, Kimball, Young Chang, and so i was wondering, what brands should i definetlly avoid, I'm looking for a piano that would sound good playing pop, like Yiruma's music, and that can last me at LEAST 8-10 years.


Fact: Music is lifee.
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#117948 - 01/02/09 06:51 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Monica K. Offline

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Lexington, Kentucky
Hi musicxfreakk, welcome to the forum. smile I think any of the brands you mentioned should last you 8-10 years. (That's assuming you meant "Pearl River", not Pearls and River wink ).

Rather than specific brands, the factors I would look for in shopping for a used upright are:

1.) Age. Here, the younger the better, and I would try to buy something no more than 10-15 years old.

2.) Height. Avoid spinets (pianos shorter than 42" or so). Technicians hate to work on them, and they won't sound as nice as a taller console or studio. The one exception is if you can find a Baldwin acrosonic spinet, which are generally regarded as pretty good spinets. But also avoid the extremely tall uprights, as they tend to be very old (80-100 years old) and usually not good for musical purposes.

3.) Gray market pianos. These are Asian pianos originally sold in Japan and then imported into the U.S. These can be good pianos (and good deals), but there can be pitfalls in shopping for them. Having them inspected by a technician prior to agreeing to purchase is essential. Search the archives for "gray market" or "grey market" for more info.

Good luck!

p.s. "River flows in you" is one of my favorite pieces to play. smile


Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica
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#117949 - 01/02/09 06:56 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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rocket88 Offline
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You should stay away from any piano that you have not had an independent piano technician that you hire yourself check out first.


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
#117950 - 01/02/09 07:29 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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musicxfreakk Offline
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the only reason i buying a used one is because of my budget, i dont think i'll be able to get a person to check it specifically.
-.-


Fact: Music is lifee.
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#117951 - 01/02/09 07:30 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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musicxfreakk Offline
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to monica: i found many baldwin acrosonics that were very cheap...


Fact: Music is lifee.
#117952 - 01/02/09 07:32 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Ivory Dreams Offline
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Monica K and rocket88 gave you the best advice you can get.

To review: Limit you choices to recently built pianos. Make an appointment to view and play the piano, if the tone and action are pleasing to you.... make an appointment to have your tech evaluate it.

This is one of those times.... that you will need to spend money to save money.


[Linked Image]

You can own a Chickering, Christifori, or Steinway, but if you can't play it.... It is just a piece of eye candy.
#117953 - 01/02/09 07:40 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Ivory Dreams Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by musicxfreakk:
the only reason i buying a used one is because of my budget, i dont think i'll be able to get a person to check it specifically.
-.-
Sorry, I think our latest posts crossed in siber space. A tech might not cost as much as you think. A visit on your own will rule out a lot of used instruments that are not worthy of carrying home. If you absolutely can't hire a tech, consider asking your piano teacher of church pianist if they would go with you.

In my own experience these folks were very happy to help out. In many instances they have shopped for pianos in the past..... Perhaps they could offer some insight into the pitfalls of the instrument before you.

If money is an issue.... You certainly can't afford to spend your hard earned dollars on junk ---- there is plenty of that for sale under the words: USED PIANO.


[Linked Image]

You can own a Chickering, Christifori, or Steinway, but if you can't play it.... It is just a piece of eye candy.
#117954 - 01/02/09 09:45 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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musicxfreakk Offline
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Texas
yes, i know to actually get the best cheapest instrument i can get, i have to go and see it myself, but i cant get a ride, considering my uncle is a butthead so im on my own.
I saw many cheap chickerings as well.
So far, people recommended kawais,yamahas, acrosonic, and chickerings. alrighty.
also, if i get a digital, which one should i get that will last me for 3-5 years at least?
as in, it's realistic and good enough to last 3-5 years.
thankyou=DD


Fact: Music is lifee.
#117955 - 01/02/09 10:45 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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JDelmore Offline
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Check with the local techs. Often they have more pianos than they want, or know of a good deal or two.


PTG Associate Member

"There is always room above; there is only the ground below."....F.E. Morton (with props to Del F.)
#117956 - 01/02/09 10:56 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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kenny Offline
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Stay away from the expensive ones.

They are seductive.

#117957 - 01/03/09 01:53 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Supply Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Ivory Dreams:
.... If you absolutely can't hire a tech, consider asking your piano teacher of church pianist if they would go with you.
I have come across it quite often - I come to service a used piano the client recently bought and have to break the bad news to them - this piano is hardly worth tuning.

The reply: "But my music teacher/friend who plays/church pianist said it was OK."

Players, even teachers, for the most part, are not able to judge critical factors of a piano's technical condition.

If you can't hire a tech to check out a piano, then surely you can't hire one to tune the piano. Oh, yes, I forgot - it was tuned in the factory...
wink

#117958 - 01/03/09 08:57 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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ThreeBees Offline
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Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

A used Yamaha P22 school piano is the first real piano anyone should consider paying real money for. This is the secret of the piano industry. Rick Jones cannot keep them in stock. Used P22s come up periodically on craigslist for around $2000. I saw one as low as $1000, but it did not last long.

#117959 - 01/03/09 10:30 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Kenny Blankenship Offline
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used vertical pianos older than say 20 years old, should be ignored, a higher end digital offers more value, better action and sound in most cases for a better price point. Unless you are looking at name brands, that in their heyday(sp?) were expensive....and have been kept up.


Kenny Blankenship
Selling anything anyone will buy as the "Walmartizisation of the industry continues. (Still making a fair living and still having clients like me)
#117960 - 01/04/09 05:32 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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musiclady Offline
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Samick, Young Chang, Suzuki (really, don't go there!), and Mason and Risch (I've played several of the last and notice they have problems on a consistent basis.) And Casios for digital piano, or any digital piano with a detachable pedal for that matter.)

Meri


Clarinet and Piano Teacher based out of Toronto, Canada.Web: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com
#117961 - 01/04/09 09:00 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Glenn Treibitz Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by ThreeBees:
Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

A used Yamaha P22 school piano is the first real piano anyone should consider paying real money for. This is the secret of the piano industry. Rick Jones cannot keep them in stock. Used P22s come up periodically on craigslist for around $2000. I saw one as low as $1000, but it did not last long.
With all due respect, have you looked at pianos in the last 20 years? All of those brands are real piano companies other than Gulbransen and should be acceptable pianos for 20-30 years or more. None of these are noise makers. What an insult to the entire Koean piano business.


Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,
Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Casio,Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai
#117962 - 01/04/09 10:13 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Norbert Offline
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What *not* to buy is similiar to what race *not* to marry.

Insider hint:

Some treasures can be sometimes found in least suspected places. wink

I've come across a lot of shitty great name pianos and some real surprises among those who were *not*

One particular Young Chang grand comes to mind: when the Korean customer for a new Estonia offered it to us, I almost declined. She had brought it along form Korea and wanted to replace it as it was 10 years "old" to her - too old for her ethnical view of things....

Little did I know this particular piano to almost rival one of our own Sauters when it arrived here..... thumb


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#117963 - 01/04/09 10:17 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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TX-Dennis Offline
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If your budget is really that limited, I would recommend a digital. Perhaps a Casio PX series or Yamaha P series. The Casio would likely cost less. Either will last several years. No tuning needed (saves more money - which you could put toward a future acoustic piano). I have a Casio. It has a decent feeling action, but it sounds like crud (to me, anyway.) The Yamaha sounds a bit better, but it is also more money.

If you do decide to go with the acoustic, then you really need to pay a tech to check it out for you first. With used pianos, it really is more about individual instruments and how they've been maintained over the years than about brands. Find one you like at a price you can afford. If the tech says it's okay, then buy it.


Dennis
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#117964 - 01/04/09 10:43 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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ThreeBees Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by ThreeBees:
Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

A used Yamaha P22 school piano is the first real piano anyone should consider paying real money for. This is the secret of the piano industry. Rick Jones cannot keep them in stock. Used P22s come up periodically on craigslist for around $2000. I saw one as low as $1000, but it did not last long.
Thank you for repeating my post Mr. Treibitz. The more times it is drummed into the piano consumers head the better piano they will get. So you have me insulting the Korean race. Nice twist.

But it is not just me who has this opinion. Larry Fine in the 1994 issue completely trashes Young Chang and Samick as junk and lauds Yamaha as "superb, virtually perfect, rather spectacular" as I have quoted in another thread.

But here is a better question for you Mr. Treibitz. Instead of talking up the junk brands, why don't you just sell the good ones? By your signature you carry every inferior brand new but only carry the quality brands use. Why don't you just become a dealer of the good brands and then you would not be insulted by criticism of the sub-standard inferior stuff.

#117965 - 01/04/09 11:23 PM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
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Quote
But here is a better question for you Mr. Treibitz. Instead of talking up the junk brands, why don't you just sell the good ones? By your signature you carry every inferior brand new but only carry the quality brands use. Why don't you just become a dealer of the good brands and then you would not be insulted by criticism of the sub-standard inferior stuff.
ThreeBees,

Since some of your posts state opinions formed by checking out pianos at Rick Jones Piano, you might want to ask Rick the same question. Rick sells boatloads of ancient Yamahas and Kawais. He references his blowout prices on those 20 to 30-year-old pianos by comparing them to the MSRP of the nearest new equivalent (even though he doesn't sell them). Pretty cheesy, don't you think?

Among Rick Jones' new piano offerings are the Royale, the August Hoffman, and the May-Berlin. All are from China. Two of the three are store stencils. Why doesn't Rick sell new Yamaha and Kawai pianos instead of that "inferior" stuff? Probably you should ask him.

Glenn Treibetz sells lines at a lot of different pricepoints. Some may be better than others, but none of them are junk. If Glenn wanted to bother with the likes of you, he could easily defend his brands and his business. But why should he bother with a loud-mouthed immature individual who wishes to shout out what he has garnered from the 1994 Larry Fine book and from hanging out at Rick Jones Piano? I can't think of a reason. Can You?

The owner of this site would like the content of this forum to be of a quality that members would be willing to pay a fee for if help is needed for its upkeep. Unfortunately, people like you who insult anyone here who owns any piano other than those specified in his personal mantra can tear down the good work that a lot of members accomplish here. That's a shame.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#117966 - 01/05/09 12:13 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Rickster Online content
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Nice post, Turandot.

I visited a former church a few months ago for a homecoming service and they had purchased a new Young Chang 5 foot baby grand since I was there last; it sounded surprisingly good. After the service, while they were having dinner, I slipped back to the sanctuary and tried it out. It was a very nice sounding and playing piano. About as far from junk as the east is from the west. wink

Take care,

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#117967 - 01/05/09 12:56 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Norbert Offline
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Quote
But it is not just me who has this opinion. Larry Fine in the 1994 issue completely trashes Young Chang and Samick as junk and...."
I just read a book about the stock market in 1994.

But it doesn't help me one damn on Jan 5, 2009.

In fact I wish it was 1994....

Norbert shocked


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#117968 - 01/05/09 01:00 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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CozyWriter Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by ThreeBees:
Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

Hmmm... I'm curious as to the context of that. Are you basing those brand reviews on opinion or fact?

I tried the Pearl River and the fit 'n finish didn't work for me, but it was purely opinion: if I wanted to spend 4 grand on a 5-7 small grand, it's probably worth the cash.

Y-C I won't respond to, since my Pramberger P185 was manufactured by Young Chang. I'd put the RedPiano up against a same size (6-1) Kawai. It's an Awesome instrument that we won't see the likes of again. (and two years of butt-time on the bench means I can probably speak from fact on the quality of the piano.)

Too bad it's made by Young Chang wink


Inspiration is the act of pulling a chair up to the writing desk.
Pramberger JP-185 (a 6'1" mahogany-red Grand)+ Glenn Gould-ish piano chair (no cushion)
#117969 - 01/05/09 01:06 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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Norbert Offline
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People that keep ridiculing Korean or other oriental manufacturing companies today, better read the morning paper.

It's astounding who's laughing over whom these days.

Norbert shocked


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#117970 - 01/05/09 01:46 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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charleslang Offline
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Back to basics musicxfreakk what I would say to do on a low budget is go and see and play several pianos you see on craigslist until you know you've seen several you don't like and several you do like. Also look at some stores, where you can play pianos right next to each other.

Then, hire a tech to see one or two that you like the most. Don't worry about age of the piano. Some ten year old pianos are played heavily and some seventy year old pianos have been kept in good shape and in a good climate. I think Texas is a good climate for pianos.

I have to admit that I have bought three pianos without having an independent tech looking at them. I think I have been lucky, since I've been happy with them all. I would recommend doing that only if looking at something in the sub-1000 dollar range, just because there's not all that much to lose in that range as long as the piano sounds and feels good when you look at it on your own. Above 1000 dollars I would have a tech look at it.

It's also possible to just learn a little about pianos on your own for free so that if you can't afford hiring a tech then you at least know of some big potholes to avoid. You can check out the soundboard for example and what shape the hammers are in, and you can be more aware of how a loose old action feels when you push the keys from side to side. This won't guarantee you avoid all problems but it may be a step above taking a church pianist along with you to look.

Another thing is, assuming you can tell whether a piano is in tune or not, to ask when the last time they tuned it was. If it was within the last two years and it sounds badly out of tune that's a bad sign. If it's badly out of tune at all, actually, it's a bad sign, but if it's a bit out of tune but is a relatively new piano then it's a good bet that the pins are still tight and will hold a tuning.

Also avoid pianos that people have been storing in garages, unless it has been there only a short amount of time.

Acrosonics are good and they have nice tone. Some people including myself really like the tone of older Baldwins like Acrosonics and Baldwin Hamiltons. The later Hamiltons had inferior tone compared to those of the '50s and earlier, IMO.


charlessamuellang.com
Semi-pro pianist and piano technician
Tuesdays 5-8:30 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
#117971 - 01/05/09 07:50 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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ThreeBees Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by CozyWriter:
Hmmm... I'm curious as to the context of that. Are you basing those brand reviews on opinion or fact?
It seems you do not know who Larry Fine is. If you look to the right of this post you might see an add for his book on the Piano World site.

And since you will not take the time to figure out who he is and read his book I will retype it for you here.

Larry Fine is the author of "The Piano Book" which has rated piano brands for more than the past 20 year and is the only such book available.

In the 1994 edition Larry Fine completely trashed Samick and Young Chang as junk and lauded Yamaha as "superb, virtually perfect, rather spectacular."

Larry Fine on Samick: "Samick entered the US market in the late 1970s ... These first pianos reacted very poorly to the climatic extremes of North America ... with wooden parts warping, cracking and binding. Many of them had to be sent back to Korea. Throughout most of the 1980s Samick pianos were very erratic in quality. Many were plagued with problems, requiring hours of repair and adjustment by the dealer. ... Although most technicians who were interviewed at that time condemned these pianos, some who were given latitude in servicing them and who were very experienced with them said they could be made into satisfactory instruments."

So unless you pay big bucks to rebuild the Samick junk its worthless.

Larry Fine on Young Chang: "The first Young Chang pianos to enter this country (US) in 1978, fell apart, as did all other Asian pianos before them, due to inadequate seasoning of the wood for our climatic extremes. Many of these pianos were sent back to Korea. Throughout the 1980s, Young Changs continually improved and by mid-decade, some technicians considered them to be satisfactory for casual or less serious use. However, the quality control was still quite inconsistent and some pianos had problems required a great deal of repair and adjustment by the dealer. ... improvement continues, but perhaps at a slower rate. ..."

And it goes on like that for several paragraphs, I am too lazy to type it all. In other words, Larry Fine says as of 1994 Young Changs and Samick are JUNK JUNK JUNK.

Larry Fine on Yamaha: "Yamaha has always had a reputation for superb quality control and virtually perfect preparation of the pianos in the factory. This is still essentially so, but with just a little less finesse than before, particularly in the American-make instruments. ... Technicians are enthusiastic about servicing Yamaha verticals, especially the uprights, which are considered rather spectacular pianos. ... "

If Young Chang and Samick finally learned to make proper pianos they did so in less than the last 15 years when Yamaha has been making the finest pianos for more that 100 years.

#117972 - 01/05/09 09:02 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
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tanjinjack Offline
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In Larry Fine's latest 2008/2009 annual supplement, Samick (and K&C) and Young Chang receives positive comments.

Here's some quotes about Samick.
"Quality control in Samick's Korean and Indonesian factory has been steadily improved, especially in the last few years, and the Indonesian products is said to be almost as good as the Korean. Many large-scale issue have been addressed and engineers are now working on smaller refinements."
"Samick's upper-level pianos - K&C Millennium series, JP Pramberger, and Wm. Knabe - have met with a very positive response from technicians as to their musical design and performance, exceeding comparably priced pianos from Japan in that regard."
"With good dealer prep, I recommend Samick-made pianos for average use."

Here's about Young Chang.
"The Platinum Edition and Albert Weber pianos have greater musical potential and respond well to expert voicing."

I cannot deny the fact that in the annual supplement, there's quality control issue addressed to the Koreans but that can't make one to rule out the Koreans as a choice.
I can't deny as well that the Japanese (Yamaha and Kawai) are impressive pianos and they receive positive comments from Larry Fine.

And, IMHO, there should be a reason that YC is chosen by Steinway to build Essex.
Other than that, we have to know about the connection of Mr. Pramberger's team with the Koreans.

Despite being regarded as subjective and something we should not care for, YC and Samick both have pianos at the same Tier with Yamaha C. But, as other would say, take the Tier system as a reference only, don't be serious about it.

Well, I hope I didn't quote too much from his book, but that can serve as an reference anyway. So, it's up to you to believe wise words from 1994 or 2008.

ThreeBees, I feel that you are biased.

#117973 - 01/05/09 09:53 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Avantgardenabi Offline
Full Member
Avantgardenabi  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
ThreeBees,

As Korean citizen and as a Young Chang owner, I am seriously offended by all of your past comments.

Unless you do have an evil intention to promote your bigotry and to label Korean-made pianos as "junks" in this forum, I do not even understand your entire existence as a member.

#117974 - 01/05/09 10:37 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,011
Horwinkle Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Horwinkle  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,011
Quote
Originally posted by Avantgardenabi:
ThreeBees,

As Korean citizen and as a Young Chang owner, I am seriously offended by all of your past comments.
I doubt that ThreeBees' comments were intended to offend Koreans. Rather, he's pointing to the informed opinions of a respected author on the subject (Larry Fine).

ThreeBees says (referring to Larry Fine) that 1990's (and older) pianos from Korea had serious problems. Since the OP is considering a used piano, he might be well advised to stay away from those pianos.

The story might be very different for newer 2000's Korean pianos.

I would add that if the OP is looking for a used piano, he should DEFINITELY enlist the help of a piano tech to evaluate the piano. Even the best-name used pianos can be junk. Heavy use and lack of care/maintenance can ruin a piano, so the buyer had better beware. You need a piano tech to evaluate any used piano ... before buying.

#117975 - 01/05/09 11:49 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Quote
I doubt that ThreeBees' comments were intended to offend Koreans. Rather, he's pointing to the informed opinions of a respected author on the subject (Larry Fine).
Horiwinkle,

You are correct. ThreeBees is not intending to offend Koreans. He/She is intending to offend everyone. Here is a collection of ThreeBees' comments during his/her short stay here.

Quote
you might as well go with Yamaha the 100 year titan than with the 10 year gamble. Most people do not have the time or ability to figure that out.

Yamaha is the only piano anyone should every buy.

I repeat. Yamaha is the only piano anyone should ever buy.

The more times it is drummed into the piano consumers head the better piano they will get.

Yamaha has been making the finest pianos for more that 100 years.

Since Kawai is found in university practice rooms it could be considered. But after spending a day in Rick Jones piano shop and playing all the Yamaha and Kawai pianos he had there, I came to the concluded the Kawai does not sound as good. Therefore, I do not recommend it.

Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist.

I owned a Schafer & Sons upright piano for 15 year. They are made by Young Chang (Larry Fine 1994) and are therefore trash.

The dealer's advice on Piano World does not seem particularly useful in most cases.

But here is a better question for you Mr. Treibitz. Instead of talking up the junk brands, why don't you just sell the good ones? By your signature you carry every inferior brand new.
Let each person be the judge of his/her intelligence, intent, and attitudes toward other members.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#117976 - 01/05/09 11:50 AM Re: Piano brands that I should stay away from?  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 195
stanw909 Offline
Full Member
stanw909  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 195
SoCal
I agree with Horwinkle.I think 3bees is speaking of older Korean.

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