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Clementi versus Czerny #1172421
04/01/09 03:32 AM
04/01/09 03:32 AM
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Carldee Offline OP
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Has any adult learner tackled Clementi`s "Gradus ad Parnassum" 29 exercises and Czerny`s "School of Velocity" to be able to give an account of the progress one will be able to achieve after learning them at a fair speed?.

-----------------------------------------------------
I am not going to fall again in the trap of tackling music pieces without first learning those exercises properly. I fell for it too many times and have never profit by that action.

As my teacher used to tell me as a child:, "Repeat with me: exercises make perfection, exercises make perfection...............

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Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1172459
04/01/09 06:15 AM
04/01/09 06:15 AM
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DragonPianoPlayer Offline
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Hi Carldee,

First I recommend posting this question over in the Pianist's Corner. I think you will find more people over there who have studied these works than in the ABF.

I have not worked through either one, but you might want to get the full edition of Clementi's "Gradus ad Parnassum." My edition has 100 exercises, not 29. It is available for download in three parts over at www.imslp.org .

Rich

Last edited by DragonPianoPlayer; 04/01/09 06:16 AM.

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Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: DragonPianoPlayer] #1172511
04/01/09 08:19 AM
04/01/09 08:19 AM
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moscheles001 Offline
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The volume of twenty-nine exercises is Tausig's edition. He pared the 100 down to what he considered the most beneficial.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: moscheles001] #1172678
04/01/09 01:50 PM
04/01/09 01:50 PM
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Carldee Offline OP
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Thank you Dragon, didn`t know Gradus has 100 exercises and can download it .

And Moschelles is right, my edition is Carl Tausig`s.

Well, if one doesn`t ask, one doesn`t learn..........

--------------------------------------------------------
We know what we do, when we do what we know............and viceversa.......the trouble is that I don`t know what I do and don`t do what I know........that is why I can`t play the piano well........although I play "piano" in order not to disturb the neighbours..........who don`t get disturbed because I play "piano"...so I ask myself: "why to play "piano" when my neighbours don`t get disturbed?"..............

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1172718
04/01/09 03:08 PM
04/01/09 03:08 PM
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moscheles001 Offline
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Carldee:
I'm curious what sort of answers you'll get to your question. I've been wondering about both books myself and whether or not they're worth working through.

I downloaded my copies of both, by the way.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: moscheles001] #1172757
04/01/09 03:44 PM
04/01/09 03:44 PM
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Carldee Offline OP
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Hi Moschelles.
I`m not sure what question you are referring about. If you refer to my subject question about Czerny and Clementi you can see the answers to my topic above.

If you refer to my question on my comments about "why to play "piano" when I don`t disturb the neighbours", it is a "catch 22" situation, because if I play loudly then I will disturb them, therefore I will have to play softly or "piano", but then I won`t disturb my neighbours and therefore there is no reason to play "piano", so I can play loudly, but that will disturb them...........so till the end of the world..........

I think you will benefit enormously from practising both composers`s exercises because they knew what teaching piano was all about and they devised those exercises to progressly make the player practise all the combinations of difficulties is going to encounter, so every note played is well thought to make you learn whereas if you just practise ordinary pieces you will only encounter a few combinations of difficulties and it will take you much longer to progress to the same level as when practising their exercises.

This is my opinion and I stick to it unless Clementi or Czerni prove otherwise.................

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1173080
04/02/09 07:24 AM
04/02/09 07:24 AM
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moscheles001 Offline
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I meant your question about the progress one might expect from studying Czerny and/or Clementi. I don't know if I should give either a shot or not. Some people here are big on technical exercises, and others are against them.

I wonder if one is more beneficial than the other, and if either is beneficial at all. That's one of the problems with not having a teacher: you have to grab for guidance wherever you can.

Were you going to re-post your question in the pianists' forum?

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: moscheles001] #1173292
04/02/09 02:02 PM
04/02/09 02:02 PM
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Carldee Offline OP
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Ok Moschelles this is how I see it. If you are self taught as I`m, although I took lessons many years ago, the best way to learn is by employing the best teachers, and better than Czerny or Clementi don`t come easily.

Playing the piano means to find your way on the keyboard quickly and accurately, so that the right finger strikes the right key at the right time with the right force and for the right length of time. There must be millions and millions of combinations of different fingers striking different keys. If one learned all those combinations properly one could play the piano perfectly, leaving aside interpretation, of course.

What this old masters did was to devise exercises that packed as many combinations of fingering possible which is most commonly used in playing music pieces, and therefore every bar of their exercises is packed with technical information.

In those days people were tougher and if learning to play meant boring exercises, so be it, but the end product was magnificent. For adults that is the best way to learn. For children is a different matter because they get bored easily and the teachers have to sweeten their lessons with pretty tunes which might not contain so much technical info and therefore they take longer time to learn.

If we just did exercises every day, say 2 hours for a whole year and nothing else, at the end of it I`m sure we`ll be able to play quite sophisticated pieces and that is exactly what I`m doing now. I`m in my 4th month and I`m resisting the temptation to play Beethoven or Clementi`s sonatinas, or Bach`s preludes and Inventions.

By Xmas I`ll be able to tell you if all was a waste of time............but don`t blame me!!, blame Czerny or Clementi.................they are my teachers, the good thing is that they don`t charge anything for their lessons, they are dead!!!!.

No, I haven`t posted this topic in the pianist`s forum, however check my recent post there titled, "METRONOME Markings", and a couple of teachers are against these exercises.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1173733
04/03/09 08:50 AM
04/03/09 08:50 AM
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moscheles001 Offline
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More than a couple of teachers are against exercises. Some even claim they cause harm, which I doubt, if practiced intelligently. I myself am going the mostly-exercise route, so we can compare notes come Xmas. Happy Holidays!

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: moscheles001] #1173921
04/03/09 03:20 PM
04/03/09 03:20 PM
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Carldee Offline OP
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Originally Posted by moscheles001
More than a couple of teachers are against exercises. Some even claim they cause harm, which I doubt, if practiced intelligently. I myself am going the mostly-exercise route, so we can compare notes come Xmas. Happy Holidays!


----------------------------------------------------------------

If some teachers believe exercises are harmful, what on earth do they teach?,.............

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1174204
04/04/09 06:54 AM
04/04/09 06:54 AM
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moscheles001 Offline
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They teach pieces of music. The idea is that you'll develop technique by learning the pieces that require technique, rather than learning technique abstractly through exercises.

This view does make sense. After all, the point of playing the piano is to play music, not scales and Hanon. At the same time, learning technique through exercises make sense because I'm not distracted by the demands of the music: dynamics, rhythm, expression. Exercises are easier in that regard, and so I think that I develop faster. Maybe it's just the way my brain works.

I know that I'm tired of being intimidated by a fast metronome marking or the words "allegro molto" and "presto." I want to approach fast pieces with a certain amount of confidence, and I think this is the way to do it.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: moscheles001] #1174284
04/04/09 10:02 AM
04/04/09 10:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
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DragonPianoPlayer Offline
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moscheles001,

Originally Posted by moscheles001
At the same time, learning technique through exercises make sense because I'm not distracted by the demands of the music: dynamics, rhythm, expression.


I understand what you are saying, but I think you are stating it backwards. Exercises are ways of focusing on dynamics, rhythm, fingering, and expression. In addition, one key goal of playing exercises like the Clementi and Czerny works you are talking about is to MAKE them sound like MUSIC.

Without worrying about dynamics, rhythm, and expression, even scales lose their value.

Rich


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Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: DragonPianoPlayer] #1174299
04/04/09 10:23 AM
04/04/09 10:23 AM
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Carldee Offline OP
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I find two drawbacks in what Moscheles says about teaching music by learning music pieces. One is that it will take longer to develop a good mechanical technic to be able to play with confidence and then be able to "make music", give it the feeling it demands.

The other drawback is the fact that one will get sick and tired of making so many mistakes trying to play a lovely tune that at the end it doesn`t mean much.

On the other hand I understand exercises can make people mad. One example is Beethoven`s nephew Carl. Beethoven forced him to play scales, etc., and I`m sure he would be quite demanding!!, that make Carl attempt suicide, as we all know.

I`m very fond of exercises, I even learned some by "Moscheles", just wonder, as you chose that nick, whether he meant something to you.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1174815
04/05/09 09:25 AM
04/05/09 09:25 AM
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moscheles001 Offline
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I don't think there is all that much to express in a technical exercise. Expression isn't the point; accuracy, evenness and speed are. That's why some piano teachers are against using them: they think the mechanical nature of the exercises will produce mechanical pianists.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1174817
04/05/09 09:26 AM
04/05/09 09:26 AM
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moscheles001 Offline
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I admire Moscheles. He was a great pianist and a very good man.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: moscheles001] #1174847
04/05/09 10:43 AM
04/05/09 10:43 AM
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DragonPianoPlayer Offline
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Originally Posted by moscheles001
I don't think there is all that much to express in a technical exercise. Expression isn't the point; accuracy, evenness and speed are. That's why some piano teachers are against using them: they think the mechanical nature of the exercises will produce mechanical pianists.


If this is a teacher on the forums with this viewpoint, I'd really like to know who they are. This is not the viewpoint of any of the professional teachers I know. I think you are mixing up your comments and confusing the comment (more often made by amateur's) that practicing with a metronome will lead to mechanical playing. If you are thinking of Hanon, then I might agree that it is a possible viewpoint. IMO, it is a much bigger concern that playing Hanon excessively and with improper technique will lead to repetitive stress injuries.

A more common viewpoint that I do see mentioned occasionally on this site is that it is better to create exercises out of the pieces you are learning instead of just working exercises for their own sake.

I have to disagree with you. Expression is the point. Making scales sound musical is one of the major goals of practicing scales. Making the etudes that I am practicing by Clementi, Czerni, etc. is the sign that I have really mastered them.

Rich


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Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: DragonPianoPlayer] #1175098
04/05/09 06:58 PM
04/05/09 06:58 PM
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Before I started lessons I did a lot of Hanon with a metronome and it certainly helped me. I have also worked through some Czerny (some 599 & 823) with my current teacher and it has also helped. If you have the time all of this stuff is of value, at least it has been for me.

You might want to take a look at the Russian school of scales. Also read the history of this approach. As I understand it a new pupil does not move on if they don’t pick this up quickly. If I had the time I would work on it. For me this might be a bit of overkill but I can certainly see why they do it.




"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon
Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: Carldee] #1175255
04/06/09 12:37 AM
04/06/09 12:37 AM
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The best teacher I ever had did not believe that Czerny,Hanon, Clementi or other technical exercises were as beneficial as extracting difficult passages from the compositions we were working on, and using them as technical excercises.

He also believed that variations were a wonderful way to develop technical skill at the piano. His favorites were the Beethoven variations in C. Minor. He used to say, "master them and you should be able to tackle just about anything."

I only had a few months of lessons with him, and then he moved to another city. That was many many years ago, but those lessons with him were invaluable. Gaby Tu

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: DragonPianoPlayer] #1175396
04/06/09 08:07 AM
04/06/09 08:07 AM
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moscheles001 Offline
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Dragon,
I need to clarify: when I say "exercises," I mean Hanon, Dohnanyi, etc., not etudes or Czerny and Clementi. There is nothing to express in Hanon; I don't consider that music, but I do think it's beneficial. In an etude, even by Czerny or Clementi, there is music, and so there is room for expression.

Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Clementi versus Czerny [Re: moscheles001] #1179044
04/12/09 12:21 PM
04/12/09 12:21 PM
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I just go the chance to re-read this thread and I would like to add, a lot depends on how much time you have to play/practice. If I had 3-4 hours a day I would certainly be doing more scales and exercises than I do now with my meager 1 hour of play time. My teacher brought this to my attention several months back when I asked if I should work on more exercies. Her words still ring in my ears “yes if you had 4 hours a day to practices but you don’t”.


"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon

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