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Is it true that dominant 7th chords can lead to any chord it wants to? Like going from a Ab7 to a C7 to an Eb7 to E7?
Is there any good resources for learning jazz nondiatonic harmony?
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Any chord can lead to any other chord if that's what you want to hear. There are a couple of common substitutions though, such as the tritone sub or a dominant chord on the flat 7 of the scale (generally preceded by a minor iv chord). I find that parallel dominants work well with patterns based on diminished chords, either moving directly up or down by minor thirds (ala Gershwin's first prelude) or doing something like up a major third, down a half step. Actually any sort of Slonimsky-esqe melodic pattern will work for this sort of harmonic parallelism. There's no reason to limit this sort of outside reharmonization to just dominants though. Any chord quality is fair game. For a more inside outside sound temporary modulations via ii-Vs work wonders. To get the feel of this set yourself up with a boring repetitive I-vi-ii-V pattern and then every other time around use a ii-V from a different key when you get to that part of the progression (playing the original I-vi-ii-V every other time helps to reestablish the original key in your ear). You'll find that there are really only a couple of ii-Vs that don't work well.
You might try posting this in the non-classical forum as well, since more of the jazz discussions happen there.
Last edited by Markeyz; 04/12/09 08:04 PM.
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You might try posting this in the non-classical forum as well, since more of the jazz discussions happen there.
Not really. This is a topic that can be applied to both jazz or classical or any music genre for heavens sake.
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Yes and no. There are altered dominants, which can act as pivot chords much like French augmented sixths do, and there are the "Coltrane Changes" which uses a clever substitution scheme to employ dominant sevenths above a root progression in thirds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changesMost advanced jazz theory books cover both of these structures.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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You might try posting this in the non-classical forum as well, since more of the jazz discussions happen there.
Not really. This is a topic that can be applied to both jazz or classical or any music genre for heavens sake. I didn't say move the post, I said post in the non-classical as well since there may be members with helpful information there that don't visit this forum often. Just trying to be helpful. And for the record, I agree that both jazz and classical, and even rap on occasion, make use of chords and harmonic progressions.
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You might try posting this in the non-classical forum as well, since more of the jazz discussions happen there.
Not really. This is a topic that can be applied to both jazz or classical or any music genre for heavens sake. I didn't say move the post, I said post in the non-classical as well since there may be members with helpful information there that don't visit this forum often. Just trying to be helpful. And for the record, I agree that both jazz and classical, and even rap on occasion, make use of chords and harmonic progressions. These people are very intolerant of jazz players. The very word evokes hostility over here.
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These people are very intolerant of jazz players. The very word evokes hostility over here. I can't say I've noticed it.
Du holde Kunst...
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These people are very intolerant of jazz players. The very word evokes hostility over here. I can't say I've noticed it. They certainly don't like me! And I couldn't be more puzzled over it!
Last edited by BJones; 04/12/09 08:56 PM.
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They certainly don't like me! And I couldn't be more puzzled over it! You do come across as a bit - how shall I put it? - combative.
Du holde Kunst...
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Everybody here loves Tatum. Tristano on the other hand...
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They certainly don't like me! And I couldn't be more puzzled over it! You do come across as a bit - how shall I put it? - combative. Never combative. I'm just passionate. I earnestly hope that some of that passion will rub off on some of these people and they'll be better pianists because of it!
Last edited by BJones; 04/12/09 09:04 PM.
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Never combative. I'm just passionate. I earnestly hope that some of that passion will rub off on some of these people and they'll be better pianists because of it! Many of us are very passionate indeed about the music we love, as you are about the music you love. I think it's combative to rubbish the passions of others. Respectful discussion is another thing. The issue is where you choose to draw the line between the two.
Du holde Kunst...
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Everybody here loves Tatum. Tristano on the other hand... Early Lennie, before his improvisations matured, sounded just like Art. have you ever heard any of his pre-Savoy 1942 to 1945 recordings? They're very rare.
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Everybody here loves Tatum. Tristano on the other hand... Early Lennie, before his improvisations matured, sounded just like Art. have you ever heard any of his pre-Savoy 1942 to 1945 recordings? They're very rare. Can't say that I have, though I'd like to. My exposure to Tristano is limited to YouTube and a CD with two Atlantic albums: "Lennie Tristano" and "The New Tristano" from '56 and '62 respectively.
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Everybody here loves Tatum. Tristano on the other hand... Early Lennie, before his improvisations matured, sounded just like Art. have you ever heard any of his pre-Savoy 1942 to 1945 recordings? They're very rare. Can't say that I have, though I'd like to. My exposure to Tristano is limited to YouTube and a CD with two Atlantic albums: "Lennie Tristano" and "The New Tristano" from '56 and '62 respectively. Incredible tracks on those two albums, my teacher has a youtube video of him playing his version of Scene and variation, the first movement, from Atlantic 1357 (1962): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttYhe's added an introduction, expanded Lennie's aggragates, from 5 to 9 note aggregates to 10 to 15 note aggregates (thumbs and pinkies sometimes used across 2 or more keys) and also the retrograde inversion idea of the first 4 opening notes was augmented motivically. Although Lennie's first main jazz influence was Earl Hines, Lennie's harmonic language is pure 20th century neo-classical, right out of Ives, Bartok, and Honegger!
Last edited by BJones; 04/12/09 10:45 PM.
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Meanwhile, the topic of the original post was...
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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Meanwhile, the topic of the original post was... Jazz harmony. That's what I thought we were discussing, with all due respect. Tristano's applocations of harmonic counterpoint far transcend the rest of the jazz world, and still do today, sharing more in common with the great 20th century classical composers, actually putting Lennie's music more in the realm of clasical discussion analysis than jazz! I thought it was interesting that Lennie was brought up. Being a long time exponent and student of the Tristano school, IMO the subject was pertanent, so when somebody else , not me, brought up Tristano, naturally, I answered. I won't mention him or jazz harmony again though, even if someone asks me specifically. I defer to the good experts of this forum section on jazz harmony. I have nothing more to say on jazz harmony or Tristano's neo-clasically based harmonic counterpoint. 15 years of playing and studying his music and study with one of his greatest students just doesn't qualify me to speak on the subject. I'm quite sure everyone here knows far more than me about jazz harmony, or anything else concerning piano for that matter.
Last edited by BJones; 04/12/09 11:28 PM.
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The thing is, I know basic harmony like: diatonic chords, the common ii V I and ii V i, tritone substitution, deceptive cadences, passing chords, extended dominants, the circle of fourths and the circle of fifths, and chord extentions, and modulation. The problem is, I am reading this one book called "Stride and Swing piano", and I seem to not understand some of the chord changes, because a lot of them are not based on diatonic harmony. Most of the progressions I know are based off the circle of fourths and fifths. Especially I have trouble with Tatum's harmonies.
Here are some easy non-diatonic progressions:
DbMaj7 Ebmin7 Edim7 Fmin7 F7 Bbmin7 Eb7 AbMaj7 Dmin7 Gb7 G7 Cmin7
It can sometimes get pretty confusing when you have chord progressions like these:
Dmin7 Eb7 E7 Gb7 G7 Db7 C7 Bb7 A7 Gb7 FMaj7
F7 Bb7 Bdim7 F7
GMaj7 D7 E7 D7 GMaj7 F7 Edim7 Dmin7 C#min7
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Maybe he'd been checking out Satie's Sarabandes.
The F7-Bb7-Bdim7-F7 looks like a blues cliche, particularly if the last F7 has a C in the root. It might continue C#dim7-D7-Ab7-G7-Dd7-C7-B7-Bb7 with the Bb7 landing on beat one of bar four. The others are more confusing, even more so without knowing the rhythm or song they are taken from.
I suppose one thing to consider is the use of dominants as a sound in the blues rather than as a part of a cadence. Think of a tune like "Doxy" which, although not a blues, is harmonized almost completely with dominant chords.
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The F7-Bb7-Bdim7-F7 looks like a blues cliche, particularly if the last F7 has a C in the root.
I didn't think of that. I was totally confused when I saw the big jump from Bdim7 to F7, but it looks like this progression could add an extra chord to it: | F7 | Bb7 Bdim7 | (Cmin7) F7 | BbMaj7 This is because F7 contains notes C and Eb, which would symbolize the Cmin7 chord. Analyzing the progression, F7 goes up a 4th to Bb7 and Bdim7 is the passing chord to the Cmin7(or F7).
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