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Anyone observing the piano scene cannot but notice the steadily rising number of Asian and particulalry Chinese stars. Most are very young, virtuosic and fearless about embracing the most difficult repertoire pieces. The news from China describes a vibrant scene with a great popular interest in piano. There are eight large conservatories and a myriad of private piano schools. Names of Chinese teachers are coming into better focus. A good example is Dan Zhaoi from the Shenzhen School. His students populate many American and European conservatories and most competitions. He taught Yundi LI, Zhang Zuo, Sa Chen and many others. I read an old article in the LA Times that indicated that Pearl River produces 280 pianos a day and can hardly keep up with the demand in China, with an estimated 15 million piano "players" and more. So I have a few questions to stimulate discussion. I would like to emphasize that I am not interested in sterotypical statements but in shedding light on to the phenomenon and gain better understanding for what is emerging as a de facto new school of piano playing, in my opinion. *I will start with this last statement. Is there now a definable Chinese school of piano playing? One could discuss the definition of definition. But let us keep it simple: A shcool with a distinct pedagogy, that produces players with similar background, technique and approach. Granted, these students mature into independent artists who learn from experience and eventually develop their personal style. But is a Chinese school, akin to the Russian School, of piano playing already established?
*If you answered Yes, how would you desribe the main characteristics of this School? * If you answered No, why?
* Some claim that the Chinese approach has not matured, mainly because the music they are playing is not ingrained in the Asian culture. The counterargument is that classical music is not really very omnipresent in Western culture either, although pop music does relate, harmonically and otherwise, to classical music in many ways. Do you agree?
* Common traits among Chinese conservatory graduate are speed and technical virtuosity. There is an impression of little variability among players and a greater emphasis placed on the technical and competitive aspects of piano playing. Do you agree?
* Another feature common to Chinese graduates is their greater popularity among young people especially. They come across as more "normal" than the child prodigies of the Russian (and related)schools (think Kissin, Pogorelich etc). Yet they are more likely to receive rather negative criticism especially from established critics. Is it just because they rock the boat and threaten a status quo, or is the criticism largely deserved?
Yep, I saw a piece on BBC that was talking about the new "middle class" in China and they all want their kids to play piano or violin. It's as much a bit of a status symbol as actual interest in music I think.
This is an interesting topic. I will make a lot of references to my roommate who is from China.
I think china has developed a system or else they would not be able to churn out so many pianists. My roommate used to actually agree that it had not matured, and that most chinese pianists were mostly technically inclined. Which I found interesting that he would say that. We used to sit in on each others practice sessions. He helped me on my technique. And I helped him with the other musical aspects. We both benefited greatly from combinning our talents in this way. It was always nice to have another set of ears esp one with opposite views hear your playing. During this time the piano students seemed to split up into two groups. The asain students and the non asain students. I was always sad when I would go to a performance class and see two distinct groups.
The only odd thing was his and some of the other asain piano majors treatment of composers such as beethoven, mozart, and even Bach. Unless it was a piece like Beethoven's Appasionata, it was just a technical exercise to prepare them to charge through a piece by Liszt or Rachmaninov. I can't speak for other ones, but is till talk to my roommate alot by phone, and I know he has grown exponentially as an artist. He still treats some composers as just technical exercises for liszt or Rach, but he now treats them with sensitivity.
I remember one of my teacher's saying he hated it when he had to judge a competition in Hong Kong, because he would hear the same piece played hundreds of time each time the same way.
I do think the asain artists are more accessible then others like Kissin. There is the sense that you can walk up to them and start a conversation.
Most of my biases are not against the students though, but against the teachers who promote such things... I have seen teachers screw over their other students for the sake of their asain students... Seen schools who were already to full go on to accept tons of asain students, then take away opportunities from students who already went there. Heck one of my first days I was told by a teacher who never even heard me play before, that I would never be a concert pianist because I was not asain or eastern European.
there's no Chinese school of piano playing but Russian school actually, since piano playing was imported to China initially and Chinese conservatories heavily depended on Russian teachers and their influence after 1949. not sure about piano study before 49 though, but an old lady told me that before she and her family fled to Taiwan, she was thinking about study music or piano and was taking some lessons then.
Excellent topic, and I hope to bring, share, and explain what I witnessed in China. My wife is 100% Chinese so please be sure I never intend to make a racial remark of any sort; I do however speak as truthful as possible even if its harsh.
Recently, as recent as 2 years ago, there was an enormous interest in piano playing in China specifically. As Jeffrey mentioned, there is actually a huge number of students who could care less about piano and do it to please their parents. I did however come across a few who seemed quite talented after a mere 3 years of vigorous practice, and were considered hopeful concert pianists by their teachers.
As far as the teaching method, I hated to see that when it came to teaching piano performance, feelings and emotions were always a top priority for a performance. Work details were highly ignored, and the student was allowed to exaggerate any given line as long as he/she felt it was a sincere expression. This was bloody awful to me, because it just disregarded anything on the paper. It was like removing dynamics, bar lines, etc .... from a piece and improvising with it the way Bach's music would allow ... It was horrible. .
Technically there were some very fine pianists who already played Liszt and Schumann quite well. However, sadly as I saw, the older and more advanced students who were genuinely interested in piano performance, relied too much on recorded performances, which impeded them from ever achieving a true voice. This also led them to practice vigorously until they achieve , let's say, a Richter or Horowitz touch, to put it that way. Once they felt they had done it just like them, the piece was done and perfect. I found nothing of value in that approach from the pianists themselves. However, the teacher was encouraging of such approach, something I personally would condemn.
As some may know, I sort have a basic understanding of the piano repertoire from classical to contemporary, and because of that I did interview several pianists with my wife about repertoire and what is encouraged. Baroque, classical, and romantic still occupy a 98% I would say of these pianists' repertoire. A young lady explained to me, in her personal truth, that even though Chinese pianists were increasing at a high rate, they do not approach classical music the same way as a Westerner does, because the music is much more developed than the Chinese traditional music. Asian music from China for the most part has been relying on very strict composition methods for centuries, particularly the pentatonic scale. There is quite little room left for romanticism, something very evident in Chopin and Schumann, so for the Chinese even in the 20th century, this music was quite too much.
I did find that the pianists and teachers were quite amiable and very friendly. Unfortunately for someone like Kissin, his talents were realistically speaking, and that could cause someone to become an eccentric.
I personally have a thing for British pianists as well as the Japanese who seem to be receptive to absolutely anything, almost seeming like the people as a nation say "yes" to everything. To my surprise, about 3 years ago, I heard a Japanese pianist in Osaka I believe, perform Alkan, Sorabji, and Finnissy all in the same program. I was shocked because I wasn't aware that the pianists are actually exploring the repertoire over there. In China that was not the case, and my wife will back me up 100%. To quote my best friend who is is also Chinese, "Chinese ears cannot take anything past Rachmaninov". Although its only his opinion, I believe its at least partially true.
When I spend time in NY, I like to go to Carnegie and listen for myself some of the hidden talents or old ones for that matter, and see what's new in the musical scene. In China, I did attend 2 recitals with nearly exact programs and they did happen to sound just like the other. Though this does not prove anything, it does make me wonder whether all pianists are learning the exact same way. Is there a Chinese way? Thats's something I cannot answer.
I did witness some virtuosity in a couple but I only saw it works like that of Messiaen and Ligeti etudes which are becoming more acceptable in the piano repertoire. I cannot wait until someone else tackles the Dusapin etudes. xD However, I don't feel the pianists I saw who were considered masters of their instrument, actually knew enough about performing music. I ended up thinking that for them playing the piano was like writing a love poem. All I saw was a display of emotions, and the piece's details suffered heavily. Modern repertoire cannot be done justice with those approaches, especially in those "5 brain" pieces where you seriously need a higher IQ just to attempt to play. I personally feel there's no balance between emotion and prepared performance. Every performance I saw suffered from excessive rubato and prestissimo octaves or scales when a basic tempor of allegro was introduced.
there is definitely a wait to see and hear someone that I personally think has something better to bring to the piano than the others we all already know.... < Those have done absolutely nothing for me honestly ...
Excellent topic, and I hope to bring, share, and explain what I witnessed in China. My wife is 100% Chinese so please be sure I never intend to make a racial remark of any sort; I do however speak as truthful as possible even if its harsh.
Recently, as recent as 2 years ago, there was an enormous interest in piano playing in China specifically. As Jeffrey mentioned, there is actually a huge number of students who could care less about piano and do it to please their parents. I did however come across a few who seemed quite talented after a mere 3 years of vigorous practice, and were considered hopeful concert pianists by their teachers.
As far as the teaching method, I hated to see that when it came to teaching piano performance, feelings and emotions were always a top priority for a performance. Work details were highly ignored, and the student was allowed to exaggerate any given line as long as he/she felt it was a sincere expression. This was bloody awful to me, because it just disregarded anything on the paper. It was like removing dynamics, bar lines, etc .... from a piece and improvising with it the way Bach's music would allow ... It was horrible. .
Technically there were some very fine pianists who already played Liszt and Schumann quite well. However, sadly as I saw, the older and more advanced students who were genuinely interested in piano performance, relied too much on recorded performances, which impeded them from ever achieving a true voice. This also led them to practice vigorously until they achieve , let's say, a Richter or Horowitz touch, to put it that way. Once they felt they had done it just like them, the piece was done and perfect. I found nothing of value in that approach from the pianists themselves. However, the teacher was encouraging of such approach, something I personally would condemn.
As some may know, I sort have a basic understanding of the piano repertoire from classical to contemporary, and because of that I did interview several pianists with my wife about repertoire and what is encouraged. Baroque, classical, and romantic still occupy a 98% I would say of these pianists' repertoire. A young lady explained to me, in her personal truth, that even though Chinese pianists were increasing at a high rate, they do not approach classical music the same way as a Westerner does, because the music is much more developed than the Chinese traditional music. Asian music from China for the most part has been relying on very strict composition methods for centuries, particularly the pentatonic scale. There is quite little room left for romanticism, something very evident in Chopin and Schumann, so for the Chinese even in the 20th century, this music was quite too much.
I did find that the pianists and teachers were quite amiable and very friendly. Unfortunately for someone like Kissin, his talents were realistically speaking, and that could cause someone to become an eccentric.
I personally have a thing for British pianists as well as the Japanese who seem to be receptive to absolutely anything, almost seeming like the people as a nation say "yes" to everything. To my surprise, about 3 years ago, I heard a Japanese pianist in Osaka I believe, perform Alkan, Sorabji, and Finnissy all in the same program. I was shocked because I wasn't aware that the pianists are actually exploring the repertoire over there. In China that was not the case, and my wife will back me up 100%. To quote my best friend who is is also Chinese, "Chinese ears cannot take anything past Rachmaninov". Although its only his opinion, I believe its at least partially true.
When I spend time in NY, I like to go to Carnegie and listen for myself some of the hidden talents or old ones for that matter, and see what's new in the musical scene. In China, I did attend 2 recitals with nearly exact programs and they did happen to sound just like the other. Though this does not prove anything, it does make me wonder whether all pianists are learning the exact same way. Is there a Chinese way? Thats's something I cannot answer.
I did witness some virtuosity in a couple but I only saw it works like that of Messiaen and Ligeti etudes which are becoming more acceptable in the piano repertoire. I cannot wait until someone else tackles the Dusapin etudes. xD However, I don't feel the pianists I saw who were considered masters of their instrument, actually knew enough about performing music. I ended up thinking that for them playing the piano was like writing a love poem. All I saw was a display of emotions, and the piece's details suffered heavily. Modern repertoire cannot be done justice with those approaches, especially in those "5 brain" pieces where you seriously need a higher IQ just to attempt to play. I personally feel there's no balance between emotion and prepared performance. Every performance I saw suffered from excessive rubato and prestissimo octaves or scales when a basic tempor of allegro was introduced.
there is definitely a wait to see and hear someone that I personally think has something better to bring to the piano than the others we all already know.... < Those have done absolutely nothing for me honestly ...
Thank you for posting this, it's very interesting. I wonder if perhaps Lang Lang also takes a purely emotional approach to performance.
This is very interesting. My take on Chinese pianists. Many of them play well mechanically, but that's it. There is very little expression or true feelings in the music they produce. It's as though it's contrived. Perhaps this is because, as William mentioned, they listen to recordings rather than try to work on the music themselves. They never really feel the music or really hear it for themselves. They only copy what they hear.
John
Current works in progress:
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816
Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
I'm rather intrigued by your analysis. Mainly because I have a completely opposite view point. I have participated in festivals and competitions with the 'from China' kids. I must say, a lot of them are so extremely talented; technique-wise.
Before I go on, I must say, in Asian culture, people value education greatly. And classical music is a 'status' of your education. So, sadly, a lot of children are forced into piano or violin when truthfully they don't enjoy it much.
That being said, there are a portion of the students that may excel technically but have no musical ideas of their own because they just don't have the passion for it. The kids that really truly have a passion for music though, are great performers. They're technically sound, and have their own interpretations. But it's another part of the culture that limits them - from my POV
The Chinese society in general, is very strict. This restricts people from expressing their emotions. From experience, me being Chinese: I found it very hard to express deep and real emotions for a while. Growing up in a family where you don't see many emotions that you may in Western society. I can say truly, I have never seen my father cry. I've only seen my parents kiss once. It's just an observation I made on the culture and how we tend to hide emotions. Even in Chinese films, tv shows and other pop culture, you tend to see only shallow and superficial things.
Now when translating that to music, I find in myself, and a lot of other Chinese students, that we tend to supress our emotions in our playing. We may have them, but we don't express them fully, and I see that hurting our performance. Although I have witnessed excessive Rubato like William described. I tend to see that as a product of the teacher telling them to play rubato instead of a teacher explaining the emotions and story behind the romanticism there.
Would it be an unforgiveable faux pas for a Caucasian pianist to play "Chopsticks" in the presence of an Asian pianist? Just curious in case the situaton arises.
I can't comment on a 'Chinese school' of playing but I have come into contact with quite a few Chinese pianists.
I knew a lot of international students who went to the same conservatoire as I did. I have to say that I never really encountered the stereotypical robotic way of playing that many people talk about. It's true that there was an emphasis on technique and virtuosic repertoire amongst some of the Asian students but the same can be said of the Brits as well. If you walked the corridors you would hear Brahms, Liszt, Chopin etc. Very little baroque or modern music. What I did notice was that the Chinese students were not afraid of hard work. They put the hours in while a lot of us were down the pub! And technically they were amazing. But there was much more to their playing than that. It was very musical and sensitive and they seemed to be less inhibited that some of the westerners. The European students had very strong opinions and were keen to voice them when commenting on the performance of others. It caould come over as rude and arrogant but I just think it's a cultural thing.
At the moment I teach part time in a school which takes a lot of students from overseas, mainly China. I get a lot sign up for piano lessons. Most have played before and reached a good intermediate standard at a very young age. Then they stopped for some reason and I can never get them to explain this very well. One lad told me that his sister played to an advanced level but was not looking at a career in music. He said the competition is so fierce in China and there was no money in it. He had his ABRSM grade 5 at the age of 10 but gave up because that was not good enough. I think they have very high standards and expectations. The downside of this is that you need to be even better to succeed. What is interesting is how quickly they settle in to the British way of life! After a few months they do just as little practise as everyone else.
My best private student is Chinese. Her family are so supportive and they expect her to work hard. They can be a bit pushy at times but it's because they want the best for her. This girl is most certainly not there because she is being forced. In fact she loves it and is extremely dedicated and enthusiastic. I wish all my students were like this.
Would it be an unforgiveable faux pas for a Caucasian pianist to play "Chopsticks" in the presence of an Asian pianist? Just curious in case the situaton arises.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)
I am not sure about Mainland China but in here, a city in the region, for the piano-teaching population consist of mainly teacher which view piano playing as a sport. They can only pay attention to things like if you have played a wrong note or a correct note. If you have been playing according to the music or not. How fast you can play your Czerny.......just to name a few examples. So they are pretty much missing all the points why people play piano. Of course there are very good teachers here. But they are the rarities. However i think the situation will be very different in like 20 years time as many got the opportunity to study music oversea. There will be a new generation of teacher which should have been more sensible in their trade.
About hard-working-ness......Besides family, i guess opportunities are not as abundant state-side and there is a culture of comparsions. Ranking are provided in many test and examinations and students and parents really got addicted to where they (their kids) are in class. So those can be a drive also.
My dad has studied a bit about brain based learning and he said the key to many Chinese having such a strong work ethic comes from their ancestors growing rice in the southern part of the country. Farmers had to work about 13-14 hours a day to make sure rice fields could be useable.
I also read something about many Chinese students studying to get scholorships in America would stand while they studied so that if they fell asleep, the fall would wake them back up.
Andromaque, referring to your last point; if the renaissance in Chinese piano playing deserves any criticism, I have to say that it is a good thing for everybody who loves classical music to experience this renaissance.
For far too long the classical music industry has been hijacked by snobs who think they own it, and of course they do, because they have the clout behind them, with spin doctors who promote some players with propaganda till the common person in the street believe it. The musically well educated person judges by what he/she listens to.
There are fantastic musicians and singers who never make it big because of this structure of the classical music industry. So let the Chinese prove themselves and try to break this mould with their sheer numbers of good pianists who cannot be ignored.
As far as the criticism that because they are Asian they can`t understand classical music, let us look around us and we find that the mayority of Westerners only listen to what many of us consider "noise" rather than music. Interpretation comes only if one has a good technic and the Chinese seem to be good at that. Like some Westerners, some Chinese will have a feeling for the music and will perform accordingly, some will have to be taught interpretation, but to say that because they are from a different culture they can`t deliver as well as anybody else in the world, I think it is a fallacy.
Let us not forget that until Beethoven most barroque and classical music had very few indications of how it should be interpreted, it was left to the player to do so. He was the musician and should understand it. Beethoven changed that by giving precise indications to extract the best meaning out of the music he wrote and from there on other composers followed the trend. So interpretation can be learned, never mind one`s culture.
Some composers threw the emotions and feelings they had into their music, others were good a composing in such a way that would cause listeners to sense emotions the composer himself didn`t feel at all, he was just good at composing. I think the same happens with interpretation whatever one`s culture is.
Andromaque, referring to your last point; if the renaissance in Chinese piano playing deserves any criticism, I have to say that it is a good thing for everybody who loves classical music to experience this renaissance.
For far too long the classical music industry has been hijacked by snobs who think they own it, and of course they do, because they have the clout behind them, with spin doctors who promote some players with propaganda till the common person in the street believe it. The musically well educated person judges by what he/she listens to.
There are fantastic musicians and singers who never make it big because of this structure of the classical music industry. ........
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep just following along doing what we're told to do, believing what we're told to believe, buying what we're told to buy. I'm actually embarrassed at what the population of this country has come to given the seeds from which it was sown.
If China, or Chinese Classical music can re-ignite our passion, then bring it on!
I also read something about many Chinese students studying to get scholorships in America would stand while they studied so that if they fell asleep, the fall would wake them back up. Matt
I guess that would make Jerry Lee Louis the first Chinese pianist.
Right on Kennychafflin, I looked at your lovely pictures and we should let loose some of the coyotes in your pictures amongst the sheep..........and some woolves amongst the classical music snobs..........that will take care of them........
By the way, how do you quote from another member`s post and frame it on your own post?, I find that more difficult than playing piano !!.
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Right on Kennychafflin, I looked at your lovely pictures and we should let loose some of the coyotes in your pictures amongst the sheep..........and some woolves amongst the classical music snobs..........that will take care of them........
By the way, how do you quote from another member`s post and frame it on your own post?, I find that more difficult than playing piano !!.
Maybe that would work, but not likely, I think we need better teachers, better role models, better publicity.
Thanks for your kind words about my photography -- another passion of mine as music is.
As far as quoting, just click the "quote" button on the post you want to reply to.
I'll bet there's a FAQ around here somewhere, but that's the short-form answer.
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Well, you know ..... sports!
We do put lots of public and private dollars into that! For sure!
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Well, you know ..... sports!
We do put lots of public and private dollars into that! For sure!
Size and strength is key. The Asians are mostly lilliputians, in a nice way of course, God Bless their soft, little, Michael Jackson sized selves.
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Well, you know ..... sports!
We do put lots of public and private dollars into that! For sure!
Size and strength is key. The Asians are mostly lilliputians, in a nice way of course, God Bless their soft, little, Michael Jackson sized selves.
Size and strength is key. The Asians are mostly lilliputians, in a nice way of course, God Bless their soft, little, Michael Jackson sized selves.
BJones, in the Shape of your hands thread you described Chopin as effeminate based on his diminutive stature, guessed that he had the handshake of a lady and applied the green sick-face smiley in response to the depiction of a teenaged boy who hadn't filled out.
Now you compare Asians to Lilliputians in size and to Michael Jackson in softness (or would that be girliness?).
And you've mentioned numerous times that you're a power lifter.
This seems to add up to an unusual preoccupation with matters of masculinity, strength and size. Hey, maybe all men have some insecurities on some level and to some degree, but it's uncommon to see such a pattern of pointed and out-of-context references. This gratuitous fixation on girly-men, apparently to make sure we know you're not one, is unneeded (and comes perilously close to "Doth protest too much").
Size and strength is key. The Asians are mostly lilliputians, in a nice way of course, God Bless their soft, little, Michael Jackson sized selves.
BJones, in the Shape of your hands thread you described Chopin as effeminate based on his diminutive stature, guessed that he had the handshake of a lady and applied the green sick-face smiley in response to the depiction of a teenaged boy who hadn't filled out.
Now you compare Asians to Lilliputians in size and to Michael Jackson in softness (or would that be girliness?).
And you've mentioned numerous times that you're a power lifter.
This seems to add up to an unusual preoccupation with matters of masculinity, strength and size. Hey, maybe all men have some insecurities on some level and to some degree, but it's uncommon to see such a pattern of pointed and out-of-context references. This gratuitous fixation on girly-men, apparently to make sure we know you're not one, is unneeded (and comes perilously close to "Doth protest too much").
Steven
I'm not at all fixated on effeminate men, but it appears that some of the members here discuss them as often as possible, even on Easter Sunday, God forgive them! Hey, to each his own. We were momentarily talking about Asians and sports, not pianistics. I merely commented on the differences in average size and stature. Sorry if I unintentionally mentioned a subject pertaining to your personal insecurities.
Geez, it certainly doesn't take much to upset your apple cart, does it?
Then again, I just may have made that post about miniature Michael jacksons just to count how many apples you had in that rickety, easily upended cart, once they all fell out!
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Well, you know ..... sports!
We do put lots of public and private dollars into that! For sure!
Size and strength is key. The Asians are mostly lilliputians, in a nice way of course, God Bless their soft, little, Michael Jackson sized selves.
How is this relevant to their playing?
It's not. However, it is relevant to powerlifting, which we were momentarily discussing in a sidebar. They're not built for powerlifting. I was just pointing that out after someone put down Americans, stating that the Chinese are better at everything than Americans.
Safe dog food and safe toy manufacturing is another area where the Chinese lag far behind.
Meh. Obsessions with masculinity, strength … and size … speak volumes. Doth protest too much after all. Q.E.D.
Steven
You're too easy!
And thank God I'm here now to help straighten you out! I may just be that answer to your novena, if you can stop pontificating and posturing long enough to listen. Now where were we before you got us all off track with banter about effeminism?
Unlike many of the posters in this thread, I'm not acquainted personally with a Chinese pianist and I haven't been to China. Excellent qualifications for an unbiased, dispassionate view grounded on dismal ignorance, perhaps? I've read most of the posts in this thread and I would not be posting myself if I didn't think that this abysmal ignoramus on the subject may have something to add; everything imho, naturally.
Originally Posted by Andromaque
*Is there now a definable Chinese school of piano playing? * If you answered No, why?
I believe a 'school of piano playing' can only evolve from a musical tradition that involves many elements, specifically composition. A major reason why so many successful virtuosos emanate from Russia, Germany/Austria, France and Eastern Europe is that these countries have generated most of the notable composers of classical music. I'm not aware that the composition of classical music is strong in Asia.
Originally Posted by Andromaque
* Some claim that the Chinese approach has not matured, mainly because the music they are playing is not ingrained in the Asian culture. The counterargument is that classical music is not really very omnipresent in Western culture either, although pop music does relate, harmonically and otherwise, to classical music in many ways. Do you agree?
Classical music is ingrained in Western culture. It is not ingrained in Asian cultures. That's it. Pop-music is ubiquitous at all times and in all countries. At any one time it represents mainly the social currents of an evolving society. Classical music evolves according to its own rules and time-scale, a bit like mathematics.
Originally Posted by Andromaque
* Another feature common to Chinese graduates is their greater popularity among young people especially. They come across as more "normal" than the child prodigies of the Russian (and related)schools.
A possible explanation is that Asian virtuosos are not carrying the weight of a 'Grand Tradition' on their backs. They have not been beaten into submission by a tradition that is centuries old and very protective of itself. Asians want to play the music they like the way it sounds best to them. Once they've reached a certain level of maturity and have the freedom, they don't see why they should not do this. This lends them a naturalness that makes them accessible. If young people respond positively to this, that's great. 'Old farts' like me may prefer our virtuosos to be a bit distant, inscrutable, preserving an air of mystique, as it were.
Originally Posted by Andromaque
Yet they are more likely to receive rather negative criticism especially from established critics. Is it just because they rock the boat and threaten a status quo, or is the criticism largely deserved?
A young Asian cannot absorb, say, the Russian tradition of music-making so a Russian critic may find fault simply because an interpretation does not conform to his or her idea how Russian music should be interpreted. Of course, an element of not wishing the 'boat to be rocked' will be present, though this would be rationalized in terms of maintaining the tradition, not accepted as being an unfair bias.
That so many Asians are interested in classical music is, I believe, a confirmation of its universal appeal and a great compliment to Western cultural traditions. It is a wonderful thing and we all should (and mostly do) embrace it. We should also embrace and foster the evolution of classical music within Asia -- Asian performers interpreting the work of Asian composers, so Asian countries can evolve their own traditions in classical music.
The following 'devil's analogy' is going to appall. I'm not trying to be provocative, nor insult anyone. I make the analogy because I think it is not entirely frivolous.
When Japanese automobile companies first began exporting, they were not very well received in the west. There was disparaging talk of a 'copycat mentality'. The West regarded itself as the innovator and the Japanese as the 'copycat'.
Who is innovating now in automobile design?
In classical music, the criticism was raised in this thread that Asian interpreters are hung up on Beethoven, Brahms, Rachmaninov etc. and do not seem very interested in contemporary composers who are trying to push forward the boundaries. If this is correct, then Asian interpreters accept subconsciously that they are not innovators, they are expressing the vision of established artists of the past. Is this not a bit like 'copycat'?
If you can buy into this, then you can possibly make the leap, with my 'devil's analogy' in mind, and contemplate the possibility that the next Beethoven, Brahms or Shostakovich may, very possibly, be born in China, or Korea, or Japan.
* Some claim that the Chinese approach has not matured, mainly because the music they are playing is not ingrained in the Asian culture.
* Common traits among Chinese conservatory graduate are speed and technical virtuosity. There is an impression of little variability among players and a greater emphasis placed on the technical and competitive aspects of piano playing. Do you agree?
* Another feature common to Chinese graduates is their greater popularity among young people especially. They come across as more "normal" than the child prodigies of the Russian (and related)schools (think Kissin, Pogorelich etc). Yet they are more likely to receive rather negative criticism especially from established critics. Is it just because they rock the boat and threaten a status quo, or is the criticism largely deserved?
I don't agree with any of the above generalizations.
Maybe they were more valid 10 or 20 years ago, but the large number of Chinese pianists who qualify for major competitions seems to say that they are in general much more than highly technically skilled. I don't think the judges only look at technical skill at even low level competitions no less the bigger ones. Add to that the success of pianists like Yundi Li, whose winning of the Chopin Competition would hopefully again indicate far more than technical mastery.
Competition results are very important to the careers of young pianists from Russia, Europe and the US...not only those from China.
In terms of popularity among a younger audience, I assume you are mainly talking about pianists like Lang Lang or Yundi Li. But these pianists were to some extent groomed by management or in the case of LL chose their own performance styles to appeal more to young people. In the US pianists like the 5 Browns or the the Anderson/Roe duo are very popular with young audiences.
My Keyboards: Estonia L-190, Roland RD88, Yamaha P-80, Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, Antique Pump Organ, 1850 concertina, 3 other digital pianos ------------------------- My original piece on BandCamp: https://frankbaxtermrpianoworld.bandcamp.com/releases
Me banging out some tunes in the Estonia piano booth at the NAMM show...
I had a Chinese student - lazy as heck. Still, I've a new Chinese student who just got a merit at grade 3 singing. It's interesting working with a really bright kid on something that needs more than just intelligence. Though a good pianist he struggles to find his voice.
sotto and bjones, I'd advise you both to get back on topic, or abstain.
Frank, I didn't foresee that challenging a pattern of outlandish, self-serving and inflammatory statements—e.g., that most Asians are small, weak and effeminate, to cite one of many—would result in a reprimand. Mea culpa! I needed a reality check, so thank you.
Obviously, if someone spews garbage, and somebody else addresses it, they'll both be blamed equally. (After all, that's the essence of "Never argue with a fool …" and "Never rassle with a pig ….") Your request to abstain is well taken, too. (That's the whole point of "Please don't feed the troll"!)
sotto and bjones, I'd advise you both to get back on topic, or abstain.
Frank, I didn't foresee that challenging a pattern of outlandish, self-serving and inflammatory statements—e.g., that most Asians are small, weak and effeminate, to cite one of many—would result in a reprimand. Mea culpa! I needed a reality check, so thank you.
Obviously, if someone spews garbage, and somebody else addresses it, they'll both be blamed equally. (After all, that's the essence of "Never argue with a fool …" and "Never rassle with a pig ….") Your request to abstain is well taken, too. (That's the whole point of "Please don't feed the troll"!)
Balls it is. How many young western kids do you see growing up listening to Chopin or Mozart these days? I dont personally know a single western or white person that shares my interest in classical music, even those on my music degree hadnt listened to anywhere near as much classical music as I have - they usually just want to be club music DJs or play in a rock / metal band.
Also, the only home I have ever seen a Piano in is my own after buying one 4 months ago.
If a Russian is going to say 'Asians cant play our music because they dont share our culture', then that Russian is Ignorant and maybe just a bit racist perhaps? Would they equally question an American playing a Russian piece? Or a Brit? Or is it just that someone from Asia cannot learn or adapt to music or culture from another country?
Anyway, the last I checked, the only part of Western Culture that I have ever seen these days is 'head banging' music (dance, rock, metal, pop, RnB, Hip-Hop etc), drinking untill you pass out, and forgetting everything the next day. But I suppose in the critics world, that a drunk white person who doesnt even know the definition of the word 'concerto' would visually make a better Pianist to these 'critics' than an Asian person who has been playing the piano all their lives? There are a lot of inaccuracies in this thread. Really, I dont like Lang Lang. I dont like him one bit because I find him to be arrogant and cocky. But I love Chocotiger on Youtube who is asian and the most wonderful Joplin player today. People will still disagree and critisize him and other players, but what I say to these critiques is 'Well, how about you show me how it is done then?'
I hardly know any Pianists by their real name, that is how unpopular piano playing actually is in Western Culture - Britney Spears is what Western Culture is all about these days. And have you even heard pop music from Russia and Europe? It is a complete mockery to think that people who make and have popularised such rubbish music these days could think that a person from another country cant play their classical music, which is already a long forgotten part of their unpopular historic culture today.
I dont really think that the composer themselves would complain if they heard someone from the other side of the globe play their music, I myself would be honoured if it was my music.
Last edited by Bhav; 04/13/0905:20 PM.
'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'
- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Balls it is. How many young western kids do you see growing up listening to Chopin or Mozart these days? I dont personally know a single western or white person that shares my interest in classical music, even those on my music degree hadnt listened to anywhere near as much classical music as I have - they usually just want to be club music DJs or play in a rock / metal band.
May I suggest that you are confusing the term "culture" with that of "personal interests" or perhaps even "pop culture". Is it not generally accepted that the "culture" of any society is the expression and manifestation of all the knowledge and skills that that society has acquired and that contribute to what that society is?
Thus, the plays of Shakespeare, the novels of Dickens, the poetry of Aeschylus or Pindar, the paintings of Degas or Monet, the music of Mozart, Beethoven, etc., are all part and parcel of Western culture. That doesn't mean that we all have read Pindar or Dickens, studied the paintings of Renoir or Picasso, listened to Bach or Stockhausen, but their works all form part of Western culture and have helped define, to a greater or lesser degree, what we are. Therefore, it seems quite valid to say that piano music is a part of Western culture, whether the punker living next door has been exposed to it or not.
Britney Spears is what Western Culture is all about these days.
"Britney Spears" et al have always prliferated the mainstream popularity of all Western music! Even in beethoven's day, pop music was king with the majority of the population. The few arisctocrats, compared to the man in the street, were the ones who listened to the classical composers you all know and love. while clasical compositons were being performed for a small crowd wearing white wigs, makeup, and satin undies, thousands enjoyed "pop" music in every bar, hostel, and meeting house, minstrels playing songs like "Be kind to our web-footed friends my dear for a duck may be somebody's mother". You want an idea of what 99% of the public was listening and dancing to back in the 1840s to 1860s, watch the movie, "Gangs of New York". For every one person listening to classical music, 1000 were enjoying and dancing jigs played by minstrels. Much like pop music today.
sotto and bjones, I'd advise you both to get back on topic, or abstain.
Frank, I didn't foresee that challenging a pattern of outlandish, self-serving and inflammatory statements—e.g., that most Asians are small, weak and effeminate, to cite one of many—would result in a reprimand. Mea culpa! I needed a reality check, so thank you.
Obviously, if someone spews garbage, and somebody else addresses it, they'll both be blamed equally. (After all, that's the essence of "Never argue with a fool …" and "Never rassle with a pig ….") Your request to abstain is well taken, too. (That's the whole point of "Please don't feed the troll"!)
Steven
An apology filled with vehement insults??
Racist, hateful, and beneath the dignity of the forum members!
And if an Asian person is exposed to Western classical music, why do some people assume that it isnt possible for them to absorb the culture or to play it well, as opposed to the punker living next door who has never had an interest in it, or as an American who plays music from Poland or Russia? Those kind of comments would not be directed towards the American would they?
This is the point I am trying to make.
'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'
- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
And if an Asian person is exposed to Western classical music, why do some people assume that it isnt possible for them to absorb the culture or to play it well, as opposed to the punker living next door who has never had an interest in it, or as an American who plays music from Poland or Russia? Those kind of comments would not be directed towards the American would they?
This is the point I am trying to make.
I agree, Bhav. No argument here that those comments were uncalled for.
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Well, you know ..... sports!
We do put lots of public and private dollars into that! For sure!
Size and strength is key. The Asians are mostly lilliputians, in a nice way of course, God Bless their soft, little, Michael Jackson sized selves.
well that seems sort of unneeded. Asians may be a few inches smaller than average but comparing them to Lilliputians which were a few inches big seems kinda condenscending. Michael Jackson himself is about 5'10 which is about the average height in America.
Unfortunately this is true of virtually everything in (at least the U.S.A.) we're a land of sheep
Certainly not in powerlifting! The Asians can't get within 400 pounds of the individual USA bench press (1075), squat (1260), or deadlifting (1055) records.
Well, you know ..... sports!
We do put lots of public and private dollars into that! For sure!
Size and strength is key. The Asians are mostly lilliputians, in a nice way of course, God Bless their soft, little, Michael Jackson sized selves.
well that seems sort of unneeded. Asians may be a few inches smaller than average but comparing them to Lilliputians which were a few inches big seems kinda condenscending. Michael Jackson himself is about 5'10 which is about the average height in America.
But he's built like Kate Moss. Though 5'10", Michael takes up about the same amount of total square cubic inches as a lilliputian!
He's built like, what Horowitzian once described Chopin to an adolescent as being, a "beauiful, lithe, young boy", may God help them all in his infinite mercy, Horowitzian, Chopin, Michael, and the young boy Horowitzian was picturing!
BJones, you realize that Asian-Americans raised in the States are markedly different from their non-US counterparts, right? On average, height and weight are greater. Perhaps it is the drastically different diet in China that contributes to the type of growth you attribute (quite offensively) to all Chinese. You should look at what happened to the Okinawans after the introduction of American fast-food restaurants, and the growing obesity problem in China now that they've been living with fast-food for enough time. Those problems seem to mirror - shockingly enough! - the ones that Americans face.
This is my first and last appearance in this thread, as I don't believe that there is a Chinese school, nor am I interested in continuing a rather bogus discussion of the perceived smallness of Asian people, men in particular.
Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.
nor am I interested in continuing a rather bogus discussion of the perceived smallness of Asian people, men in particular.
No argument there. I've seen several Asian men who appeared to be full sized or slightly bigger. They're out there. On a whole, Asian women are very petite too.
Personally, I think this helps at the piano, thin fingers and a light playing apparatus more conducive to dexterity and velocity rather than a larger playing mechanism.
I knew starting this thread could lead to some biased comments, but I underestimated how unsavory things could get! I apopologize then for anyone who was offended. I just want to clarify that what I said in the first post was not by any means meant to sterotype Asians, nor to imply that their pianism is inferior. In fact I did not express my own opinion but cited statements and opinions that have been made in the mainstream or specialized media. Discussing a Chinese School of piano playing is not any more demeaning than talking about the Russian School or French school. At least that is what I think. Perhaps it is best to ? lock this thread before it gets out of hand. Thanks to those who contributed thoughtful opinions, in particular the link to a thesis about the sunbject, provided by Kreisler.
I knew starting this thread could lead to some biased comments, but I underestimated how unsavory things could get! I apopologize then for anyone who was offended. I just want to clarify that what I said in the first post was not by any means meant to sterotype Asians, nor to imply that their pianism is inferior. In fact I did not express my own opinion but cited statements and opinions that have been made in the mainstream or specialized media. Discussing a Chinese School of piano playing is not any more demeaning than talking about the Russian School or French school. At least that is what I think. Perhaps it is best to ? lock this thread before it gets out of hand. Thanks to those who contributed thoughtful opinions, in particular the link to a thesis about the sunbject, provided by Kreisler.
I agree with you. I've stayed out of this topic because it doesn't interest me. But dammit, Jones, get your quotes right if you are going to further disregard Frank's admonition to stay on topic and quit bickering.
I DID NOT SAY ANY SUCH THING.
And furthermore, I have a feeling you've been warned by the mods not to single out other members, especially when they had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Knock it off.
And I second Andromaque's request to have this topic closed.
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Didnt bother reading your little war going on here,
If you are accusing me of contributing to a 'little war' you could at least do me the courtesy of reading what I wrote.
In one of your posts you used the word 'culture' in a way different to my understanding of it. What you complain about is not culture but social mores.
Maybe it helps if I turn the situation around.
I've never been to China, but I have spent a lot of time in Japan. I came to admire Japanese culture greatly and I believe it would be a very good thing if elements of this culture were incorporated in western culture as this advances. On returning from Japan I invariably found my own culture to be lacking in several important respects.
Nevertheless, I do not believe that if I had been transported to Japan at an early age and grown up in a Japanese family that I would be able to absorb all the subtleties of the culture. I would regard the converse opinion as being arrogant, though, it would seem, if the situation were again reversed, this would turn into a 'racist remark'.
If a dispassionate discussion of racial differences is regarded, of itself, as 'racist, I agree with the OP that it would be best if this thread were closed.
Andromaque, I think you just weren't explicit enough about what you meant by the thread's title. "The Chinese School of Piano Playing" may have been misunderstood to be a real brick-and-mortar school somewhere—a eugenics institute whose covert goal is producing a superior, thin-fingered, "light playing apparatus more conducive to dexterity and velocity" despite the sighting of "several Asian men who appeared to be full sized or slightly bigger."
See, I wasnt accusing anyone, or singling anyone out, I simply replied to what I read and gave my opinion without quoting or naming anyone. If you feel in anyway that my posts were directed to you, then maybe you have a guilty conscience, but really, I have no idea who you are, nor that you have even posted anything in this thread at all - I hardly ever look at user names here, only the text that is written.
The comment that specifically irked me was 'Asian people cant absorb Western Culture'.
Ummm...
<---- 100% westernised, 0% asian except for skin colour.
'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'
- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Maybe that would work, but not likely, I think we need better teachers, better role models, better publicity. 
