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Re: Glissandos
Horowitzian #1176826 04/08/09 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Originally Posted by BJones
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
But they are useless for the classical repertoire.



Is that the only type of music? Because someone perfects a different type of gliss technique, does it mean that's all he's going to play? Glisses? Nothing else?
Would you admit that there are types of music other than Classical and perhaps a gliss, used sparingly, may have some relevance and a better manner of playing them than your preferred method might exist?


Why don't you read my profile? smile


I will, if you can guarantee me that actually reading about you won't nauseate me further than just reading your intolerant posts? sick

grin

Last edited by BJones; 04/08/09 04:08 PM.
Re: Glissandos
Horowitzian #1176829 04/08/09 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Why don't you read my profile? smile


Guitar? As Frank Slade would say in "Scent of a Woman", Whoo-ahhhh? grin

A little know scientific fact is that guitarists and pianists are natural enemies. It's genetically engrained. Like a mongoose and a cobra. eek




Last edited by BJones; 04/08/09 04:06 PM.
Re: Glissandos
BJones #1176843 04/08/09 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BJones
A little know scientific fact is that guitarists and pianists are natural enemies. It's genetically engrained. Like a mongoose and a cobra. eek

I hate it when worlds collide, like in that Seinfeld episode. Obviously (like Independent George and Relationship George), Guitarist Horowitzian and Pianist Horowitizian cannot be allowed to meet.

A Horowitzian divided against himself cannot stand!

Steven

Re: Glissandos
BJones #1176855 04/08/09 04:50 PM
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Nah, that's guitarists and drummers. wink

But since you survived, you can see that my tastes in music are a bit broader than you make them out to be.

Originally Posted by BJones
Originally Posted by sotto voce
Originally Posted by BJones
[...] And may I interject, thank the Lord, thank God for me, that I'm here now to lead pianists like Horowitian out of the dank, dark ages of the outmoded pedagogy of the long dead and buried, may they rest in peace.

grin

Dang, BJones, I know you concluded with a smiley, but that's so over the top! I respect your skill, your knowledge and your passion, but your post made me wonder what lies beyond mere narcissism and grandiosity—and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_complex

Quote
"Messiah complex is a state in which the individual believes themselves to be, or destined to become, the saviour of the particular field, a group, an event, a time period, or in an extreme scenario, the world."

Or maybe you were just joking? Saving the world is a ponderous goal, but you might win more converts with a less heavy-handed approach (figuratively speaking, of course, not in reference to pianistic technique smile ).

Steven


You and Horowitzian did too much psycho-analysis. You're second guess was right. It was a joke. But sadly, Horowitizan's lack of vision on what can be done with glisses and his reluctance to admit that there might be a better way than he's familiar with, without even trying it, if he can momentarily step out of 200 year old convention, is no joke.
Unfortunately, a little less analysis of me, and a little more analysis on music, pedagogy, and glisses would serve Horowitzian better than trying to figure me out.
You people know him better than I do. has he always been this obtuse? eek


There's an old saying, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Perhaps you should contemplate that before you shoot your mouth off again.

Quote
And BTW, the action on Virtuosic's 1980s Technics digital is extremely synonymous with most grand actions.
These glisses can be played that was by a skillful painist familiar with the technique, on any type of keyboard action, mechanical or electronic.


Dang, that sounds like Gyro all over again! Sorry, Jones, but that is just not true. Have you ever played a quality grand piano in a good state of tune and regulation? There is absolutely, positively no comparison, especially when the DP in question is ancient, stone-aged, and out-moded.

Quote
How can you condemn something that there's a visual video demonstration of that works and beautifully, without trying it. And if it doesn't work for you the first time, that's normal. Skills that must be acquired shouldn't work the first time for you. I've never seen someone run on the ice the first time and start doing flawless triple axles, have you?
Anything new takes patience and practice, two elements missing from many posts in this section, sad to say. I notice that missing, and I'm not even a brilliant psycho-analyst like many here. wink


Because you are a majority of exactly one in pushing it. Furthermore, I watched that video again, and I have serious doubts as to whether any glisses were actually played. I watched very carefully, paying careful attention at the timestamps you mentioned, and I could not see any hand movement remotely resembling what one would have to do to pull of a gliss in the manner you have described ad nauseam. Nor did I hear any gliss. I repeat my challenge. Post a video on YT of such a gliss on a grand piano.

Until you do, good day! smile


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Glissandos
sotto voce #1176858 04/08/09 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sotto voce
Originally Posted by BJones
A little know scientific fact is that guitarists and pianists are natural enemies. It's genetically engrained. Like a mongoose and a cobra. eek

I hate it when worlds collide, like in that Seinfeld episode. Obviously (like Independent George and Relationship George), Guitarist Horowitzian and Pianist Horowitizian cannot be allowed to meet.

A Horowitzian divided against himself cannot stand!

Steven


And he's really in a pickle because Satan can't cast out Satan! He may have to save that pickle for a rainy day. grin

Re: Glissandos
Horowitzian #1176859 04/08/09 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
paying careful attention at the timestamps you mentioned, and I could not see any hand movement remotely resembling what one would have to do to pull of a gliss in the manner you have described ad nauseam. Nor did I hear any gliss.


You're either blind, deaf, or watching a different video.

I own 2 quality grand pianos, an M&H, and a Yamaha. I can execute that type of gliss on either. It's actually easier than a reverse finger gliss once you get used to it.

Re: Glissandos
BJones #1176871 04/08/09 05:04 PM
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Good for you; now prove it with a video. smile


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Glissandos
Horowitzian #1176872 04/08/09 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Nah, that's guitarists and drummers. wink

But since you survived, you can see that my tastes in music are a bit broader than you make them out to be.

Originally Posted by BJones
Originally Posted by sotto voce
Originally Posted by BJones
[...] And may I interject, thank the Lord, thank God for me, that I'm here now to lead pianists like Horowitian out of the dank, dark ages of the outmoded pedagogy of the long dead and buried, may they rest in peace.

grin

Dang, BJones, I know you concluded with a smiley, but that's so over the top! I respect your skill, your knowledge and your passion, but your post made me wonder what lies beyond mere narcissism and grandiosity—and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_complex

Quote
"Messiah complex is a state in which the individual believes themselves to be, or destined to become, the saviour of the particular field, a group, an event, a time period, or in an extreme scenario, the world."

Or maybe you were just joking? Saving the world is a ponderous goal, but you might win more converts with a less heavy-handed approach (figuratively speaking, of course, not in reference to pianistic technique smile ).

Steven


You and Horowitzian did too much psycho-analysis. You're second guess was right. It was a joke. But sadly, Horowitizan's lack of vision on what can be done with glisses and his reluctance to admit that there might be a better way than he's familiar with, without even trying it, if he can momentarily step out of 200 year old convention, is no joke.
Unfortunately, a little less analysis of me, and a little more analysis on music, pedagogy, and glisses would serve Horowitzian better than trying to figure me out.
You people know him better than I do. has he always been this obtuse? eek


There's an old saying, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Perhaps you should contemplate that before you shoot your mouth off again.

Quote
And BTW, the action on Virtuosic's 1980s Technics digital is extremely synonymous with most grand actions.
These glisses can be played that was by a skillful painist familiar with the technique, on any type of keyboard action, mechanical or electronic.


Dang, that sounds like Gyro all over again! Sorry, Jones, but that is just not true. Have you ever played a quality grand piano in a good state of tune and regulation? There is absolutely, positively no comparison, especially when the DP in question is ancient, stone-aged, and out-moded.

Quote
How can you condemn something that there's a visual video demonstration of that works and beautifully, without trying it. And if it doesn't work for you the first time, that's normal. Skills that must be acquired shouldn't work the first time for you. I've never seen someone run on the ice the first time and start doing flawless triple axles, have you?
Anything new takes patience and practice, two elements missing from many posts in this section, sad to say. I notice that missing, and I'm not even a brilliant psycho-analyst like many here. wink


Because you are a majority of exactly one in pushing it. Furthermore, I watched that video again, and I have serious doubts as to whether any glisses were actually played. I watched very carefully, paying careful attention at the timestamps you mentioned, and I could not see any hand movement remotely resembling what one would have to do to pull of a gliss in the manner you have described ad nauseam. Nor did I hear any gliss. I repeat my challenge. Post a video on YT of such a gliss on a grand piano.

Until you do, good day! smile


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

at exactly 43 seconds in, there's a pinky/hand pad gliss of about 2 octaves. It's real fast so it looks like the hand just moves quickly from the lower octaves to the thumb on the F#, but you can't hear that 2 octave chromatic gliss? Good Lord!

At exactly 1:17 in the other gliss occurs, starting at the lower end and culminating in the Bb D E notes being played by the 2-1 fingers (thumb on both the D and E). I know you're unable to hear it, God help you, but you can't see the keys coming back up in the wake of his hand traveling very quicly along that trajectory?

If you can't even discern something like this, my posting a video is a moot point. You won't even see my fingers moving.


Re: Glissandos
BJones #1176874 04/08/09 05:07 PM
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I find it extremely interesting you won't post a video. If you want people to believe you are something better than a crank, I advise you strongly to post a video of yourself performing such a gliss.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Glissandos
Horowitzian #1176882 04/08/09 05:18 PM
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OK, I watched again because I'm a fair minded person. I give it to you that the glisses are there. I missed them. The gliss at 1:17 was poorly executed. It sounded rough and ragged. the O:43 one sounded pretty good. I still want your video of one on a grand. I don't believe one could execute this on anything but an ancient DP that in all likelihood has loose keys. I challenge you to prove me wrong.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Glissandos
Horowitzian #1176900 04/08/09 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
OK, I watched again because I'm a fair minded person. I give it to you that the glisses are there. I missed them. The gliss at 1:17 was poorly executed. It sounded rough and ragged. the O:43 one sounded pretty good. I still want your video of one on a grand. I don't believe one could execute this on anything but an ancient DP that in all likelihood has loose keys. I challenge you to prove me wrong.


The first three times you saw it, you missed them completely, even though I time-marked them for you!! You couldn't even see them let alone hear them, Eagle Eyes. Suddenly, now you can not only hear them, but see them well enough to critique one as poor and ragged and the other as passable?

Meanwhile, both are perfect. Every note between two points, 3 octaves apart equally crushed into one small fraction of a second. Poorly executed? You couldn't hear the gliss before, but now you can discern raggedness or uneveness in 37 different notes all played in less than 1/5th of a second?

That is pretty funny!! Ironically, you yourself know that I know how ridiculous a statement that is but you must say it to posture here, as if you can tell if each of those 37 notes that occurred in 1/5th of a second was of equal length and which were not!!

And he's a crank just like I am, right? thumb

Give it up. I don't think you're fooling anybody who actually watched the video at those two time-markings.



Last edited by BJones; 04/08/09 05:58 PM.
Re: Glissandos
BJones #1176908 04/08/09 05:57 PM
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Thank's for the link. I watched his hands in slow motion by dragging the video play bar. This technique is very interesting and I'll definitely try it. It beats ripping the fingernails off up past the cuticles!

I've studied with a number of teachers over the years with my three main ones coming from a conservatory background. From each of these teachers, I've learned new techniques for playing similar passages within the same composition. With the different technqiues, I've adopted and perfected the ones that I felt useful for me. Like any tool in a toolbox, this again is another tool that is worth attempting to see if it works for me.

The point I'm trying to make is as a musician, is you need to keep learning and refining what you have in order to achieve the ultimate goal of good performance. There is no need to fight or wrestle with the instrument to produce the music.

John


Current works in progress:

Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816

Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
Re: Glissandos
BJones #1176935 04/08/09 06:45 PM
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Hmmm, I'm reminded of a quote I saw in someone's signature. "Never argue with an idiot; people watching may be unable to tell which is the idiot". I'll follow that sage's advice. Good day! smile


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Glissandos
sotto voce #1176937 04/08/09 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sotto voce
Originally Posted by BJones
A little know scientific fact is that guitarists and pianists are natural enemies. It's genetically engrained. Like a mongoose and a cobra. eek

I hate it when worlds collide, like in that Seinfeld episode. Obviously (like Independent George and Relationship George), Guitarist Horowitzian and Pianist Horowitizian cannot be allowed to meet.

A Horowitzian divided against himself cannot stand!

Steven

Or perhaps a divided Horowitzian just can't stand himself? laugh


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Glissandos
Horowitzian #1176971 04/08/09 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Hmmm, I'm reminded of a quote I saw in someone's signature. "Never argue with an idiot; people watching may be unable to tell which is the idiot". I'll follow that sage's advice. Good day! smile


You're going to leave before you explain to everyone how you were able to analyize the quantization (rhythmic and durational equalization) of 37 notes that occur in 1/5th of a second to determine which of the glisses was ragged and which wasn't (though they are identical), when the first few times you saw the video you were totally unaware of them even being there? smirk

You couldn't see the notes or hear the notes. Then suddenly, you can see and hear them well enogh to assess the duration and placement of each of the 37 notes to each other, all taking place in under 1/5th of a second.

Your exit was the first intelligent thing you did in this entire post. thumb


Re: Glissandos
BJones #1176989 04/08/09 08:25 PM
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I sugguest, as the OP, that you both mutually stop arguing and please can we get back to the discussion of glissandos and their execution in classical music?


Working On:

BACH: Invention No. 13 in a min.
GRIEG: Notturno Op. 54 No. 4
VILLA-LOBOS: O Polichinelo

Next Up:

BACH: Keyboard Concerto in f minor
Re: Glissandos
survivordan #1176999 04/08/09 08:38 PM
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Here's an example of Stephen Hough playing the end of the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini in which he plays a two-handed glissando without using his nails (see 4:50):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epsIWa7EZnU&feature=related

Unfortunately, his sleeves block a more perfect view, but he appears to be using his left finger pads and his right hand below the base of his pinkie. I saw him perform this in Denver in about 2003, and at my angle then it seemed that he used the side of his right hand too. Even if he's dragging both sets of fingerpads in this instance and not using the side of his hand, it's a different usage than the standard fingernail drag, and I'd say in this case more appropriate too - at the climax of the piece, with the orchestra at tutti, that gliss has to be LOUD, and using fingernails at that volume would be painful!

Last edited by MarkH; 04/08/09 08:40 PM.
Re: Glissandos
MarkH #1177016 04/08/09 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkH
Here's an example of Stephen Hough playing the end of the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini in which he plays a two-handed glissando without using his nails (see 4:50):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epsIWa7EZnU&feature=related

Unfortunately, his sleeves block a more perfect view, but he appears to be using his left finger pads and his right hand below the base of his pinkie. I saw him perform this in Denver in about 2003, and at my angle then it seemed that he used the side of his right hand too. Even if he's dragging both sets of fingerpads in this instance and not using the side of his hand, it's a different usage than the standard fingernail drag, and I'd say in this case more appropriate too - at the climax of the piece, with the orchestra at tutti, that gliss has to be LOUD, and using fingernails at that volume would be painful!


The underside of the hand is the way to go. Better control, wider dynamics, not at all painful to any degree, and the benefit is that you can not only target better but since the fingers are hanging there over the keys, they can be used to play notes while the palm, pads, or heel of the hand glisses!

The biggest benefit is being able to play chromatic glisses, not just white or black key glisses, by targeting the keys right where the black and white keys meet, at the angled part of the black key, simultaneous striking the white and black keys! There is a huge difference in sound one you get familiar with this type of gliss.

Re: Glissandos
BJones #1177997 04/10/09 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BJones
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
But they are useless for the classical repertoire.



Is that the only type of music? Because someone perfects a different type of gliss technique, does it mean that's all he's going to play? Glisses? Nothing else?
Would you admit that there are types of music other than Classical and perhaps a gliss, used sparingly, may have some relevance and a better manner of playing them than your preferred method might exist?


I am going to agree with you here. I have seen glissandos done in so many ways that it really just seems left up to the pianist what works best for them on the technique. I know I use several techniques depending on what I am playing, the sound I want, and the instrument used.


Re: Glissandos
BJones #1177998 04/10/09 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BJones
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
Why don't you read my profile? smile


Guitar? As Frank Slade would say in "Scent of a Woman", Whoo-ahhhh? grin

A little know scientific fact is that guitarists and pianists are natural enemies. It's genetically engrained. Like a mongoose and a cobra. eek





Hate to interject on this one but then it turns out I have got it wrong........I was always at war with theatre people...

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