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Betty, another possible approach or perhaps addendum would be to institute a rescheduling fee. Say $15 if rescheduled within 48 hrs, $25 for 48 - 96 hr, $40 for rescheduling past that time (in other words, a paid makeup!).

Thanks, John,

A penaltyfee,huh?

I'd rather have a big bouquet of fresh flowers or a plant or chocolate or a gift card or a handwritten apology along with the solemn vow, "This will never happen again".

Let's keep tossing the ball back and forth and see what happens with our brain storming.

Isn't it amazing that we've done it year after year, operated music studios, and it seems that today it is harder to communicate and be heard than ever. Or maybe more effort is required to get the clients attention about things that are important in our mutual support of each others goals and successful outcomes.

If I had to use a blank paper and some crayons about how I've been feeling lately, it would be one very black page, tediously colored in with a small throbbing red heart in the middle, and on the page in the upper right, one dropping tear. Charlie Chaplin did pathos well, and I kind of think that feeling translates to my art well as I've described. Or, should the tear be red, to represent blood....hmmmmm, sweat, or tears?

Betty

Betty, I don't think I'd label it a penalty fee. How about a "Flexibility" fee?

Fundamentally, the student has purchased an hour of your time, at a specified time. Now they want to purchase a second hour of your time, at a discount!

You can't resell that first hour, so it really belonged to the student. They are truly obligated to pay for it. But of course, most students are just like us, we see only what's most advantageous for us, not the other person's perspective.

So I find it's necessary to frame the issue from their perspective. Something like: well, I have students who've missed lessons for various reasons, and if you give me 48 hrs notification, I can schedule them in. When students cooperate, we all get more out of the program, and you'll be able to be scheduled in next time one of them must miss a lesson.

Perhaps part of the problem is scheduling. Do you intermix your tuition based students with fee for lesson students? When I tried that a few years back, it was an unmitigated disaster, much like what you're experiencing. I finally got to the point that I take only tuition based students, regardless of age. My tuition based students don't get makeups, just the privilege of rescheduling within the week, if an opening is available. Call it a tough love, use it or lose it student motivation program. It works!

By the way, I've been working on my fee schedule for next year, and just to leave the door open to students who may need an occasional lesson, I've decided to put them in at 90 min only, fee TBD, but probably around $75.

I guess Scruffie has heard plenty by now, but I'll answer the questions anyway.

"How long is your initial meeting, and do you include some instruction or is the first meeting more of a consultation to establish the student's proficiency levels and an overall game plan? How much do you charge for this initial meeting?"

Referral from another long-time piano student, fifteen-minute phone interview, hour-long first lesson at full price. First four lessons, paid in advance, with the understanding that it was "on probation," for both of us. During this time she found out what I could do, what my problems as a musician were, whether I would show up and pay up, whether I was too scary to let in the door, whether I could learn.

"How do you communicate student specific expectations of progress? Do you use a written plan or is it ad hoc? Do teachers set "progress review" benchmarks, perhaps scheduling a longer meeting once or twice a year, to review accomplishments to date and progress towards the mutual goals?"

Teacher tells me in plain English exactly what she expects, in detail, with instructions for addressing my problems and issues. No written plan, I make notes afterward or sometimes during, and she marks the score with phrasing, fingering, etc. Every lesson is a "progress review" if you mean that she sees if I apply what I have learned, from toetips to fingertips. It's like a trip to the fire, but it's amazing how fast an hour can fly by.

"Do you cover in your first meeting a list of the most important items and issues you want to get agreement from your student? Is there a FAQ kind of list that you hand out, and what are the most important of those?"

No, and no. The understanding is that she teaches and I practice and put the time in, otherwise it is going away. I can see how such documents could work for some teachers, but mine does it "on the fly." After several lessons we discussed missed lessons, make-ups, etc., just because I wanted to know. She said, "If you're sick, stay home. If you have to miss a lesson for some other reason, give me as much notice as you can--- at least three or four days. We'll either arrange a refund as appropriate, or I'll reschedule if I can." However, she knows I show up on time, every time and make my best effort to do what she asks me to do. If it were otherwise, she might have given a different answer.

"Basically, I am interested in hearing from our experienced teacher community"

Well, you're out of luck there... but this is the way one experienced teacher handles it.

I am sorry to know the headaches some teachers have with students and parents who are irresponsible, disrespectful of your business, or are in too much chaos for learning to have a chance. I used to be in a business where I got clients through public advertising, and I found that I just had to accept that a certain amount of winnowing through was part of the process. Later I found that my customers had had the same problem with people in my business, so when they found someone who suited them they were loath to let them get away. The good ones, you keep, the bad ones, you thank and say goodbye. There will be some write-offs, there will be some whiners, there will be some things that have to be made right no matter where the fault fell. They are just line-items in the cost of doing business, included in the overhead. And remember, it is just a job, it is not worth a nervous breakdown. There are some people only God can help.

If I am remembering correctly, I think you said on a different thread that you were no longer going to hold initial consultations on an unpaid basis... is that right? If so, does this mean that any prospective student who approaches you for lessons is going to have to commit to and pay (in advance) for 10 lessons before meeting you in person?

If so, that's entirely your prerogative, but given your other comments about having a hard time recruiting and retaining students, I'm guessing this new policy will be counterproductive. I know that I would not agree to pay for 10 lessons in advance with a teacher whom I had not met in person.

Monika, it's really hard to know what to do. Tacoma, just north of where I live, has been really hard hit by this recession. There are adults with time on their hands, and my guess they are thinking how to occupy themselves productively. Also, parents still want the best for their kids, but paying for lessons when one bread winner has just gone on unemployment becomes a major problem (I've faced several of those myself these past months). I tend to agree that 10 lessons may be a bit too much, but then, Betty has a good reputation, so parents can decide if they want her services or not.

Thank you Monica, for your rapt attention to topics I previously posted and for asking for clarification of what I meant.

I don't have a hard time getting inquiries, I have had over 16 emails from prospective students since January from 2 different piano teacher directories where they have read my profile and seen my rates. I offer on those websites the free lesson introduction of one hour time.

When I e-mail back, I get info such as not owning a piano, so I give some info about necessity to own a piano, etc.

I ask about their goals, their background, very little info comes back to me so that I can be prepared to conduct an interview as to their needs. I want student info in advance.

Some never return my first email to them - I will send two more emails - one in about 5 days, then another in 30 days. If no response they are placed in an incomplete inquiry file.

Of the 3 who booked appointment with me last week, there are a total of 5 hours set aside (one rebooked) which no one showed and has not emailed. Wouldn't this convince you that to offer this is self-defeating? I still have a number of inquiries to finish following through with as to the free lesson - introduction as they contacted me from the sites that still have that offer posted. It takes a while to get this changed on the sites I use, and in my policy. O think I will put a time limited offer on it before I remove it and then start the $25 fee.

I had also stated before that I would charge $25 for the first lesson starting in June - even if it were an hour at $40 fee.

I am going to offer 3 ways to start lessons and the student may choose 1 of them, or all 3:
1) one lesson at $25 as the interview lesson which will apply to tuition if they start within 30 days.

2) The 10 lessons as a trial period (either one hour, or one half hour) before they commit to a year round schedule and payment plan. Of, if they are happy in 10 week programs where they could take a break in between, I'm prepared to schedule for their convenience.

3) The year round program from which I need 30 day notice to terminate.

4) I had a big drop in the studio last September when it was time to register for the new year. It was an economic disaster plaguing many families, and many decided to be cautious in their spending for the year. It was devastating to me in that it was the first time I had lost more than one student at a time. Boeing our biggest employer in Puget Sound was talking layoffs, and has and will continue to. Also two of my long term piano students have moved to lessons with their band instruments which is very important to them. Both girls, a hs freshman, and a 7th grader, have said they wish to be music teachers, and they need the exposure and development in band as much as piano. The older girl is a percussionist and has been jazz band pianist, and the younger girl plays trumpet and french horn. I believe they are life long musicians, and I will see each of them again and again as their is a long tern 8 year friendship with the older, and the younger is my granddaughter.

5) As far as trouble retaining, I haven't had that problem except for #4. I keep students for between 5 and 8 years. The students I now have have been with me almost 2 years or more, with one new student starting last week.

I don't think my processes for interview are that much off as from 1980-1993 I had 40 students, and 1993-2006 25-30 students.

Here in my new location since 2006, I have had up to 19 when 10 of them left last September.

During this past year I conducted interviews of which nothing has happened later. If the situation was right for them, I think they would have been eager to enroll, but I don't think people are making such decisions in the positive ways they used to be able to do. I think this is an overall lack of faith in our countries economy and fear at the personal level to spend money that may be needed for other things.

Push has come to shove.

Ask me about my $1100 a month medical plan and medicines for my husband and I. That definitely is our push coming to shove budget concern with the arrival of medicare into my life.

Betty

Absolutely... and I've said on other threads that I think it is entirely reasonable to charge for the initial interview. Piano teachers are professionals and deserve to be compensated for their time.

What I was concerned about was that your previous post *seemed* to suggest you were adopting the single policy of asking for a 10-week commitment, paid in advance, before students and their parents had even met you, because I did not think that would be very effective in attracting new students. Thank you for clarifying that this is not the case.

Given the choice of the 3 options, I can't imagine anybody going for #2 or #3, especially if the $25 trial lesson fee is applicable to later tuition.

As a consumer in a frightening economic climate I seriously doubt that I would be willing to make a 6-10 week downpayment on lessons before the first ever lesson with a teacher. Keep in mind that piano and piano lessons are important to me, and that I respect and value piano teachers.

I would be willing to pay for an introductory session, and think that Betty's idea of applying that money to the future lesson package would make me very happy as a consumer.

Just because you do your due diligence to check out a teacher and his/her studio and think that the two of you would be a good fit, does not mean that you will necessarily 'click' when the butts hit the piano bench' In my personal experience, I was friends with my teacher for 4 years before I ever took a lesson from her...and both of us did wonder whether the student/teacher relationship would work or would change the friend/friend relationship. It is possible that one or both of us would hate me taking lessons from her...because me as student and her as teacher are, in a way, pretty different than me as older friend and her as younger friend. I mention this because you would *think* that knowing someone, and seeing them perform as a piano performance student, for 4 years would tell you whether or not the student/teacher relationship would work - but that was not the case!

In that light...walking into a studio, meeting a person for the very first time and being expected to pay in advance 6-10 weeks? Well, more power to you if your reputation is such that this works for you...but I worry on your behalf that it won't. (I hope that isn't insulting)

I can't speak for other posters but I would like to say that I post comments like this in an effort to help piano teachers who read it gauge consumer reactions. It is hard to evaluate a potential plan from another person's point of view, so I hope that my input might be informative. When you have spent so much time on one side of the bench it is difficult to get a realistic picture of the view from the other side! That's why I think dialog between students and teachers here is really wonderful.

I sympathize with teachers and certainly hope that my input is taken in the spirit in which it as meant - which is not at all to criticize.

edited because I can spell but apparently I can't type

As a student, I like #s 1 and 2 in particular as incentive. I live a few minutes away from the Cleveland Institute of Music which people tell me has a very good preparatory and continuing education division for people wanting to take lessons. But when I was looking to start, it turned me off from them that my only option was to sign up and pay for an 18 week semester up front without some sort of a shorter trial period. I may be misrepresenting their policy, as it isn't very detailed on their website and I've heard different things from others recently...but I was looking to have my first lesson ever, and 18 weeks up front seemed to be an awfully big commitment when I had no idea what to expect. So, I went to a music store where I pay weekly, and I suppose I was a little lucky to find a good teacher that way.

I would no longer be scared of paying 18wks up front, but I'd certainly still appreciate a "get acquainted" period. I think you're on the right track, Betty. An interview and option of a trial period would have gone a long way for me.

Thank you Monica, Prodigal Pianist, and Buck, Jeff and John,

As you are on the taking lessons end, I appreciate input and yours is very helpful.

I realize this is a different economy and we become even more careful with our investments (look at Wall St for instance) and the fiascos in real estate, mortgage companys and banks.

I really feel for the kids who are sincerely interested in lessons, but then Mom and Dad are uncertain about getting involved for reasons they have. If they could just get the kids started, they would appreciate what piano lessons do for kids, and the skills that develop from lessons.


Betty

The Interview

It starts on the phone.

"I just bought a piano and I am thinking about lessons"
or
"I'm wanting to return to my former playing"

My first question is always always

"What music do you LISTEN to?"

Lesson is regular fee. My house or yours.
Advantage of teaching on their turff is I'll always show up.

Bring all the music you have never played. This is important because you don't want to go over something that was never finished, it will not work!!

A student who has never played, bring yourself and a smile.

In my experience with Adults from ages 30 to 65 I have noticed a few things.
They are usually very busy.
They do not have anyone forcing them to practice.
They often have other things on their minds.

The one advantage of adults learning an instrument is that they really find out who they are, they deal with their garbage, they remember their youth, they can litterally become a tearfull mess.
It's medicinal and quite a trip for both student and teacher.
I don't mind, I've been there.

Teaching an adult student is not really teaching piano persay, but fixing that in their hearts that needs fixing, sometimes that is all it is. For others it becomes music and the pursuit of it. Then it becomes a formal lesson.

I charish all my adult students, just for their bravery.
I let them know it. I've always been paid and I ask for postdated cheques however if it comes late or it comes in cash it eventually comes. I'm much more leinient on Adults payments just because I don't rely on them as my source of income. Adults can only have lessons during the day. I still teach fullforce, but my evenings and weekends are just for children who have school during the day.

I had a 65 year old who was studying for her grade 7 exam and doing exeptionally well. But her husband got sick and they had to sell the cottage and priorties changed. The life an adult is in constant flux and priorities change. Lessons for a month or a year, we all get the opportunity to encounter many aquaintances for many reasons, often these are our best learning experiences. As soon as you drop expectations and needs and desires, life has a way of holding it's own. Life will find a way even if you can't. Like the birds of the sky.

I'm curious, because this is something I have thought about alot...does this end up being a good predictor of what people want to play once they start learning?

Perhaps I'm not normal (oh THERE'S a huge shocker, I know ) but I don't listen to very much classical piano at all, unless I'm listening to a specific piece for a specific purpose.

OH my iPod (a gift from my boss) has hundreds of classical piano works, but I just don't listen to a lot of them with any regularity.

I don't actually listen to much music at all. I've always been very bad at having music in the background (I almost never listen to it at work in my cube for instance). Almost always, when I am listening to music I am actively listening...and that's just not good for trying to multitask.

edit - I meant to say, and forgot, that another major factor is that I have a hearing loss (both genetic-it runs in the women in my family-and from years of school band). For the most part, for me to be able to *really* hear recorded music the way I like, I have to turn it up...not so much of a problem when I'm home with the stereo on, but I worry about doing further damage to my hearing with headphones...so as a result I don't listen very often to any kind of music.

But when I do feel like listening to something...a lot of times it's Classic Rock or Bluegrass or Cajun or the Medieval Baebes not classical music.

I love classical music but _in person_ at symphony concerts or university recitals. There's just too much missing with recorded music. Not only do I miss out on the visual aspect of watching someone play, but there is something about being in the same room with an acoustic instrument that just can't be captured on recording.

And, perhaps even more odd, the only type of music I care to play (with the exception of Christmas music) is classical piano. My husband buys Lynard Skynard books and prevails on me to play from them every once in a while, but (even though I like Skynard) it just doesn't work for me on piano.

I don't mean to drift too far off the thread topic though - to me this type of thing does fit into a new student interview...

Me too. My own niece confided that she would like to take piano lessons, the last time I was home to visit. She's 13 and plays trumpet in her school band but she would really like to take piano (which is not a band instrument and isn't offered at school). Her parents have her great-grandmother's 60-some-year-old Acrosonic...that was probably last tuned in the 50's (they live on the family farm's "home place"...the piano came along with the house). But she hadn't ever told her mom she would like piano lessons. I sure did. I told my sister-in-law and mother-in-law both...my SIL said she "should" look into lessons for her but it would require $ to get the piano operable, $ for lessons and the weekly round trip 'into town' from the farm. So nothing happens.

Listening to music gives me an idea of what music a student would like to learn and also allows them the opportunity to tell me (as you did) all about their musical world.
After what you have said I would start with classical and add Rock/Blue Grass and Cajun and discuss how they relate and their history.
You like Cajun so you may like to sing and dance, Cajun has a drilling beat that might impress you. You may even be french.
It may mean you're high spritied, that you like alot of people around and parties and occassions and happiness.
Cajun means you may like Gavottes or Bourrees.
I could play the triangle. Whoo hoo...
I would also give you a list of all the upcoming concerts in your area and discuss their music and programs and talk about which ones you liked best and why.
I would also recommend you do not use headphones and go for a hearing test and full exam. That could be serious stuff or not so serious, but look into that.
You also like Christmas music, that's great, I'd make you give me full concerts while a sang along. I'd also make you rewrite the rhythm on some of those. Again the joy of Christmas with all it's fun and folk, you're propbably one happy go lucky fun lovin' person.

WoW! Lots of very interesting perspective from many teachers running their businesses. I sympathize with Betty and others who sometimes suffer the abject rudeness of people who miss appointments and don't even feel the need, not to mention guilt, to contact her to apologize!

Thanks for all of the responses. I got some good ideas of what to expect, which was the purpose of my post.

I would suggest not charging for the initial meeting, but before setting that appointment would....

Require the prospective student to go online to the teacher's web site to fill out an new student application including acknowledging reading and agreeing to the teacher's terms and conditions (including things for the student, like teacher cancellations for example). Also, I would not include any lesson material in the first meeting, limit it to 30-45 minutes, and in the terms and conditions make clear that the teacher will require upfront payment of four lessons at the end of the first meeting (refundable if the probationary first 4 lessons are not satisfactory to either teacher or student), and I would confirm this when setting up the first meeting appointment.

Lastly, when you are offering services to the public at large, whether the service is landsacping, remodeling, piano lessons or everything in between, you will experience people who make appointments that you respect but they don't, but of course that doesn't make it any easier when you are again stood up by some deadbeat.

At least, those are some ideas you might consider Betty.

Good Luck

/Scruffies

Thank you so much, Scruffies....for the empathy and the good wishes. I certainly consider well meaning things said to me in the piano forum that have a good intention or a sense of purpose behind them.

It has become in the last year that it is harder to find rapport in meeting with prospective clients for the first time. We are just too busy these days trying to hold everything together, I think. Something has to give as a way to release pressure and we pick ourselves up from the tatters.

I can't afford to be part of that mix as I work faithfully on having a good day and being appreciative of my life and friends and loved ones and good fortune. I try to keep a good mind set and take care of my health issues which means protecting myself from difficult situations, and knowing when to stop.

I give freely, but not after being mistreated, as I strongly believe in reciprocity being a coin of the universe.

Thank you for posting in friendship!

Betty

Buck,

Thank you for posting about my "proposal" of 3 offerings.....I just happened upon it and wanted you to know I've read it.

You said, "I'd certainly still appreciate a "get acquainted" period. I think you're on the right track, Betty. An interview and option of a trial period would have gone a long way for me."

I appreciate your response because it gives me some optimism that in today's economic upheaval, anything that keeps doors open for piano students to enter is a good thing.

Best wishes to you!

Betty Patnude

I started as an adult 5.5 years ago and called an instructor from the phone book. I asked for an initial meeting and it never crossed my mind that he/she would charge just to get acquainted for 20 minutes. It really put my anxiety at ease to see the studio, talk a few minutes [yes I could have read it myself] and to have the instructor talk through the lessons. I also learned that we had 2 other hobbies in common and had a sense of mutual respect that I couldn't have gotten just from reading. I would have hit the door if he thought about charging me for this valuable meeting. He/she didn't have a lesson at that time, nor did he/she have to reschedule anyone or anything.

The payoff for the free 20 minutes - I have paid the instructor for almost 6 years and referred two other students which have been involved for 2+ years. Quite a profit for 20 minutes of time.

My time was valuable as was his/hers - but we connected and today I have a great instructor and a great friend.