Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?

Just type a : and then a ) and voila,

OK, so delete the sentence about proving it beforehand and address the rest of what I posted.

That's always a possibility, especially with the advent of new methods of generating the "piano sound." Currently most DPs use sampling technology. My Privia PX-800 uses three different levels of sampling (soft, medium and loud) but they did not sample all 88 keys, they used a subset. Notes not sampled are interpolated from the samples they do have. The current technology for software pianos is modeling in which the components of the piano are modeled and the resulting sound is generated in ways that have the potential of being very, very close to the real thing. Neither technology is anywhere near as far as it can go, so there will continue to be improvements. Other areas for improvement are the "mechanical" aspects -- the keys themselves: their feel and responsiveness. It does not appear, however, that there is a "Moore's Law" for digital pianos (Moore's Law deals with the power of the computer based upon the density of the chip).

I know of some that have lasted for 10 years or more. Mine is over a year old and is still being marketed so I presume that should I need a part it would be available for the foreseeable future.

However, unlike some prognosticators, I don't see the DP replacing the acoustic piano. I think the "real thing" will always have a market, although the market will shrink and the price will, therefore, increase. And, of course, if I had room for a good grand piano I would have one instead of my spinet.

Ed

I'm coming to this thread late, but I thought this would be an interesting personal contribution:

I use almost exclusively a Yamaha Grantouch, and have for close to 10 years. I find the action allows me to stay in close touch with the concert grands that I have to perform on, and the sound is quite good.
Of course, I play concert grands regularly and often, and I also have had an S4 at home as well for the past 4 years, but I rarely play it (once a week for an hour?). I never get to practicing until the night, and then everyone is asleep!

I find the Grantouch an incredible practice instrument. I use it with headphones sometimes, especially wearing it only on the left ear or only on the right ear to stimulate left or right brain thinking.
I also use it with volume on very low, which forces me to listen more closely and to play more forcefully, for muscle training.
I have been impressed with the amount of coloring and control I can practice on the Grantouch, and the pedaling is quite sensitive. I miss having a real shift pedal, though. However, not having it makes me really focus on it when I do come to a real piano and a real shift pedal.
I have tried practicing for long periods on clavinovas (at the Newport Festival, for example) and that is SO tiring and unpleasant acoustically. Mostly, the physical effects are terrible.

I recommend the Grantouch for anyone who has any professional experience. The real piano touch makes up for everything else that might be lacking.

Fredericch

Also, perhaps we should start a thread on the usefulness of dummy keyboards and even cardboard keyboards. I had people in my workshops work on cardboard keyboards, and the results were fantastic!

Wasn't it Leon Fleisher who was running through a concerto with George Szell, "playing" it on a table because there was no piano. Szell pointed out a mistake that Fleisher made, and Fleisher apologized, saying that he had never played that table before.

Fredericch

Frederic,
You made some pertinent comments, but would you perhaps consider answering the OP's question directly: "Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?".
I don't think anyone here has denied the beneficial aspects of owning a DP, especially for silent practice. But when the would-be pianist is in the beginning or even intermediate stages, would you support their exclusive use of a DP???
I know you are involved in teaching( although probably not beginners), but I am sure you can extrapolate and tell us if you would recommend it to your students.

Hey, thanks for the smiley instruction.
So frown is
How about mad or laugh?

Yes, I was trying to get back to my "piano" just then, so I neglected your other points. Sorry. OK, FWIW here goes.

Well, think that if it makes you happy. You can't prove it (obviously) until it's happened. I'm not quite sure why you have so much emotion invested in this (here and in the teachers' forum).

I don't know about the amount of emotion, but I sure want to make the right decision about my next DP or AP. Other than my teacher, I have access to no other advice outside of PW.

If you prefer a DP, then play one. If you prefer an acoustic, then play that, like I do.

I am drawn to the DP idea, but that shouldn't be the only factor to consider.

If someone tells you they won't teach you if you have a DP, then find another teacher.

I don't believe I said that that was her position.

You don't have to accurately predict the extinction of the acoustic piano in order to play what you like, do you?

Shall we go around again?

And a random thought, which may or may not be relevant: Electric guitars have been around for a very long time. Acoustics are still being made and played.

I'm not sure the electric guitar analogy works here. The DP is approaching the AP in both touch and tone. The electric guitar's purpose doesn't seem to be to imitate the acoustic guitar--but I sure don't know much about them.

Pianozuki, I may be wrong but it seems to me that you are asking for endorsement of your-already ordered- DP, rather than advice. Enjoy it and best of luck!

Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?

Problem is - I wouldn't want to be where I am today; I would have done better if I were to join a local conservatory. Or perhaps my parents could be rich and get me a concert grand when I was using diapers.

Any thoughts?

Pianozuki, are you trained in the Suzuki technique? Or is your name -zuki related e.g. Mikazuki etc?

Cheers mate, and have a beer (or cognac, which is better!)

ohmygod, I forgot to mention that because of the info I was gaining here, I cancelled that Kawai CE200 order.

My apologies to all for not informing the thread sooner.

Ha! I use the -zuki a lot when joining forums. They ask for a unique name, and I find an easy way to create a name that is both meaningful to me and easily remembered, is to pick a word relevant to the forum and add -zuki to it. Almost guaranteed to be unique. -zuki is a Japanese suffix added to nouns to indicate a person who likes that thing. Thus kamerazuki, obamazuki, yamahazuki, pianozuki. Also, "suki" means "to like" So piano+suki phonologically becomes pianozuki.

Now I'll go have that beer.

One is the real thing and the other is an imitation of it or a substitute for it. No matter how good the imitation is, I don't see how it could replace the real thing. DISplacing it is a different thing.

It seems a little weird to me that no one in the thread has mentioned what seems to me to be a major difference between the two kinds of instrument, and it is one that just cannot be overcome in any foreseeable future, and that is that the ways the sound is physically produced are so completely different. Loudspeakers or headphones just cannot effectively set the air in motion in the extremely complex way that the big box of wood and strings does. I guess many people are so accustomed to the artificial reproduction of sound that they don't think about it much, but for really advanced players, I would think that should be a big issue.

I think the target of much of digital piano research and development is to duplicate the feel and sound of acoustic pianos but remember that there is a wide variety of differences between acoustic models and families and individual pianos but and it's a big but the digital piano goes well beyond the capabilities and features of an acoustic piano. I hate it when people say it's ONLY AN IMITATION of an acoustic. The fact is that it's an instrument in it's own right that one of it's features is that it just happens to be able to duplicate the characteristics of an acoustic piano. Perhaps not exactly at this point in time, but the question comes back to which acoustic piano exactly do we want to sound like. I don't think it matters that much because if it is modeled (or sampled) on a popular high end acoustic that's good enough and again it is an instrument on its own it doesn't necessarily have to sound exactly like any particular acoustic piano since most of them have their own sound anyway.

The second part of this is as far as sound production I disagree with completely and that as much a reason it hasn't been brought up as any. The reproduction of sound is quite complex and constantly evolving. Do you listen to the radio? To a CD Player? An IPOD? All these devices are intended to store and reproduce the complex sounds of music and most people seem satisfied with the results. A digital piano has some extremely complex sound modeling and creation software that attempts to duplicate that complex set of sounds generated by an acoustic piano. Is it perfect? (see above)

Sound waves are sound waves - vibrations in the air. If a piece of technology can recreate or reproduce those same vibrations in the air our ears and brains can't tell the difference. A book I'm currently reading gets into a lot of this kind of discussion: "This is your brain on music" by Daniel J. Levitin.

I don't know if this experiment has ever been done, but there is an experiment in the computer artificial intelligence community where a person types questions to be answered by the "person" on the other end and then makes a determination of whether that person is a real person or a computer program. Maybe the manufacturers need to do a similar experiment (and maybe they do) with their high-end digital pianos vs acoustic pianos. Is it real or is it digital?



P.S. I don't see the digital piano replacing acoustic either and actually hope it doesn't they both have their place just as acoustic guitars and electric guitars. etc. etc. etc.

Auditory stimulation coming in either ear reaches both hemispheres of your brain unless you have some sort of brain damage in your auditory pathway. However, if you feel this helps your practice sessions, far be it from me to criticize your methods.

If you're curious, see http://instruct.uwo.ca/anatomy/530/530notes.htm and read section VIII, Auditory System. Under points to note about the central auditory connections, see point 2: The ascending pathway from each ear is bilateral.

Regarding the OT, I've played most of my life on a keyboard or DP, and in earlier years it hampered me to some extent. Currently I'm very pleased with my Clavinova CLP-280. It has very fine pedaling gradations that are essentially as good as a grand to my ears, and my ability to voice chords as well as play extreme pianissimo is actually unrealistically good on it compared to a real piano. However, it does not do repeated notes well. I just measured its max repetition rate (cheating by using one finger of each hand to repeat the note so my fingers aren't the limiting factor), and it's approximately 520 notes per minute (4 notes per beat at 130). To me it feels like the limiting factor is not anything to do with the electronics' ability to create that many "layers" of sound, but rather the pure mechanism of the keys not being ready to be struck again as quickly as on a grand. It's frustrating right now for the sake of Chopin Op. 10 No. 4, which I have right about at that speed. But for most repertoire it's not an issue.

Now that I've waxed poetic on the wonders of my DP let me tell you where it fails. The DP will produce one and only one basic type of sound -- a copy (suitably modified for pitch and volume) of the sample that was used. No matter what I do I can't change that. I can produce differences in sound on an acoustic piano, but not on a DP. With modeling that is potentially changeable, but not in what I've seen to date.

However, from a technical standpoint that is not a limitation in the development of what little skill I have, nor is it something that would have prevented me from getting to where I am. I've had the joy of playing on literally hundreds of different pianos in different parts of the world and that has contributed to my appreciation for the subtle differences between pianos, but I can's say that it's helped me develop any specific skills (other than listening).

Ed

I find myself doing the same thing. I've been moving more away from the Romantic period and more and more back in time to the earlier stuff as well. At the same time, I'm also finding my Vogel to now have a very heavy action, which is difficult to control.

John

I've seen the demos on the V series by Roland. They look promising. I spent my life practicing and playing on real pianos even though at one time I owned a Kurzweil K-1000 and I still have my Technics SX/PX667. I used the DP for about three years while I saved up for a grand. The DP was okay, but it took some getting used to with the pedal being different, and the touch being a bit odd comapared to the real thing.

Since I've gotten my grand, I've hardly used the DP anymore.

John

Wood Demon,

You make a good point in that obviously you are quite advanced. I read a lot of people who say that there are advanced things that simply cannot be done on even high end DPS, and who am I to dispute that?

OTOH, what percentage of what you know and can do could you have learned and done on a DP? I think this to be a far more useful question.

From my experience (back in my youth) I had an abysmal "real piano" with an abysmal action and feel, and a cracked soundboard. And yet I learned to sight read, I learned music theory, I learned a whole ton of stuff. It is NOT because I was playing on a "real piano"... any halfway decent DP would have been miles ahead of my instrument back then.

So answer my question as honestly as you are able.

I started with an old, beat up tiny upright. Can't remember what it was but it did not have 88 keys and the sound must have been very poor. Not that I noticed much at the age of 7. After a couple of years (in which I made good progress) my parents bought me a better, new upright. Nothing amazing but I loved it. When I was 13 I wanted to join a 21 piece big band. I needed a DP because it had to be portable. I got one of the first Clavinovas on the market, CVP-3 I think? Looking back it was rubbish compared to what you can get now but I thought it was great. I never really played grand pianos until I went to college. None of my teachers up to then had a grand. It didn't stop me getting into college though so I obviously didn'y need a grand at home when first starting to play.

Oh, and now I own two uprights and a Technics PC-25 all of which seem to repeat notes just fine.

I wonder if some people are missing the point (as I understood it from the teacher's forum).

The question is not about which is better, acoustic or DP. It isn't about whether or not you can play advanced repertoire on a DP. If you start out on a DP are you risking your chances of ever learning to play the piano?