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I've been really impressed with what I've seen and heard on the Sudnow website but I'm a little nervous about whats behind the door once I've paid up and walked in.

In the past I've had a few disappointing experiences with on-line piano websites and materials.

How can I be reassured that it won't happen again. Are there any dedicated members or past pupils of the course still around?

Is it possible to get access to the forum - even if for only a few hours to see whats going on?

You do know that David Sudnow passed away about a year ago right?

I think the website is still active and taking money?

It would be interesting to hear form anybody who has actually undergone the course

It is active, but the forums, where "suds" used to speak? I don't know what they're doing about that.

From http://www.sudnow.com/thestore.html :
"The Sudnow Method comes with a no-questions-asked 90 day money back refund if you're dissatisfied with the program."

If I have a fairly good understanding and ability to read conventional written notation is it best that I avoid Sudnow?

RC - I too read conventional notation before Sudnow. Before buying the Method, I was very skeptical when I learned about those DOTS.

The Sudnow Method taught me how to arrange my own songs from a lead sheet. I virtually ignored those dots halfway into learning that famous first song titled Misty.

Some students with the method play only the dot songs because they had no desire to learn to read music. Their goal was to memorize and play the songs arranged by Suds.

Most of the other students want to learn how to read from a fakebook and voice songs on the fly. That was my goal.

It takes total commitment to the method to reach that goal. I know Seaside Lee will agree that it took total commitment to Piano Magic to reach his level of proficiency at the piano.

Regarding the forum - yes, it is active. There are students on the forum who have been with the Method for a long time and are always there to help the newbies. Plus, the forum administrator has been with the method for decades. He is a goldmine of Sudnow Method knowledge and is always there to help.

The Sudnow Method does live on in a great way. It has brought music into my life in a way I never thought possible.

The Sudnow Method is alive and well. I'd be happy to answer any questions either directly (just use the "contact" link on the Sudnow web site- it works now) or via this forum.

As far as "Ragtime Clown's" question, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, but the ability to read conventional notation won't hinder your Sudnow efforts (if you're willing to give up a few sacred cows) and can, in fact, be helpful.

The Sudnow "student forums" are limited to students because there's a great deal of instructional material available there. Not the best structure perhaps but it's what we have to work with today.

On the larger question of efficacy of the Method, I can only say that we have a lot of successful students. The truth of the matter is that it's usually students that fail rather than the teaching systems they use. As all of you know, playing the piano is a big skill - there is no method I'm aware of that will obviate the need for attentive and sustained practice.

That being said, I've seen plenty of teaching approaches over the years and plenty of adult "beginners" (aren't we all?) with a great deal of desire but no way of thinking about the piano that accomplished perhaps the most important goal: keeping their ears interested enough to stay at the piano long enough to realize enough success to keep them going. I know I can't listen to "Hot Crossed Buns" for a month but I might be able to listen to "Misty" for a month if the sounds are interesting enough.

Thus the Sudnow Method begins with two key premises:
1. Adults need a learning context that keeps them engaged
2. While the sounds are far from "simple" the context of learning them is, thus most of the burden implied by traditional notation is removed.

The scope is fairly narrow (even though the forum is filled with "advanced" topics): teach adults how to play songs on the piano in a solo style using American standards as the primary source material (for reasons I won't go into here).

Thanks for your interest.

(Hi Barb - we seem to have an odd knack for writing to forums at the same time! Barb, by the way, is a perfect example of someone who has made great strides because of her own work ethic and has become a great resource-and friend- to the entire Sudnow community.)

Barb, does this mean that if I currently take weekly lessons (as I do) that it will make it difficult for me - I know, from experience that it is impossible to work PianoMagic style and remain at lessons.

Markham, that is very nice of you. The first question relates to my weekly piano lessons - can I continue attending lessons when I'm working with the Sudnow method?



1. I agree, and when my formal piano lessons end in June for a two month summer break I will need something that keeps me engaged - maybe thats the best time to join?
2. I've reached a certain level of profiency in traditional notation, is the Sudnow method something that doesn't necessessarily need any kind of notation once the rules are applied.

As a Sudnow person, I'll add my two cents....

Please note that my comments below refer mostly to the Basic Course available on Sudnow's website.

Point #1: I love the approach. But like any method, it takes commitment, patience, and persistence. In my opinion, the Sudnow approach is NOT just a bunch of techniques that a beginner might use after a couple of weeks or months of adherence to the program.

CONCLUSION #1: The approach takes a lot of work but its worth it.

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Point #2: If your goal is to quickly play pop music, you might consider not investing in it. The Sudnow approach helps someone to play standard jazz type songs at first. THen, the student, after considerable practice, can apply it to pop songs. The sounds gained from the approach give a jazzy sound.

CONCLUSION #2: If your sole interest is in playing Elton, Billy Joel, etc., you can use the Sudnow approach eventually to play these songs, but at the beginning of the Sudnow approach, be prepared to hear from your keyboard a jazzy type of sound. If you solely want to get straight type of sound, though (i.e. you want to sound exectly like Elton, Billy Joel, etc.,) you might not be happy with the Sudnow approach. If you solely want a pop sound, look elsewhere. If you want full jazzy voicings with dissonance, Sudnow is great.

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Point #3: I used to be a member of Piano Magic. The Sudnow approach is different from Piano Magic. Whereas in Piano Magic, interaction on the forums seems to be necessary for advancement, success in the the Sudnow approach does not depend on such. The Forums on the Basic Sudnow Course are simply not as crucial as are the forums on the Piano Magic course. I agree with Swingin Barb when she says that success in Sudnow's approach or Seaside's success with Piano Magic depends on actual time spent in the course. "Markham" is now the fearless leader of the Sudnow course, and he does a splendid job. (Just because a book's author may be deceased does not mean that we can not learn anything good from the book. Likewise, just because Sudnow is no longer with us does not mean that the method is gone. He did not take the secrets of the Method with him). With the Sudnow approach, you do your stuff at the piano, and then go to the forums for a secondary source of information. With Piano Magic the forums are a primary source.

CONCLUSION #3: The Sudnow approach, if you want it to be successful, takes a lot of practice at the piano. So does Piano Magic. So does ANY piano method!!!! The Sudnow approach does not use the forums as primary sources of info, though. And yes, if there are any questions about the Sudnow approach, the forums are right there to help.

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Point #4: If you want to play by ear, understand that this goal reportedly comes after CONSIDERABLE patience and persistence and time spent with the Sudnow course. I have dabbled with the course for AWHILE, and I'm not there yet. I need to be more committed to the approach.

CONCLUSION #4: The Sudnow approach helps you learn how to play great versions of songs, and is NOT a quick "learn to play piano by ear in two weeks" approach.

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SUMMARY: A peek into the Sudnow forums will not give you a sufficient look at the course, because the forums are not the backbone of the course. Take more listens of "Swingin' Barb" to hear what you can sound like. Or listen to my "Solitude" in the April Piano Bar. THe Sudnow Method, initially, will help you to play songs in a way that sound more dissonant and less conventional than other traditional pop sounds. After that, you can probably go where you want at the piano. But if your goal is to quickly play by ear, then look elsewhere. The Sudnow approach is fabulous. It has helped me sound great. But in order to take the stuff further, I need, and you will need if you purchase it, to apply patience and time to the method.

(Please note that my ideas are my opinion only, and may not actually express the views of the those in charge of the Sudnow Method, or of Piano Magic, and I am certainly open to correction).

Angelo

RC - you have posed a tough question for me.

First: Are you retired now, or do you go off to work each day? In other words, are there enough hours in your day to commit to an hour of classical practice and an hour of Sudnow?

Second, How strong is your desire to learn to read from a fakebook and play those lush voicings? Adult motivation can work wonders. You may do like I did - turn off the TV and devote every spare moment to the piano.

As Markham pointed out, it was those wondrous sounds that kept me at the piano.

RC,

What do you hope to attain with the Sudnow Course?

No, I work full time but I practice EVERY day for at least 1-2hours approx. The pieces I am working on with my teacher are not purely classical. My teacher and I make the selection when it comes to pieces so I like to throw in the occasional blues nad jazz.


I would love to play those lush voicings from a fake book! I don't watch TV, I have no time for TV. The sole reason that I got interested in Sudnow is because I am working on a beautful jazz piece by Pam Wedgewood and it use nice open chord voicings that sound so wonderful. When I visited the Sudnow site, I instantly recognised the sounds as being similar. I was hooked right away!



You see my point too, I'm hooked!



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HMMMM - let's see....

You do make the time for piano, you want to read from a fakebook, and you are hooked on those sounds. Sounds like you are heading towards a decision.

From your original post you said:
---------------
In the past I've had a few disappointing experiences with on-line piano websites and materials.

How can I be reassured that it won't happen again.
---------------

Perhaps with those other courses, you were not truly hooked on the sounds.

Thanks everyone for the info so far. Now to the crunch.....

Does the course include video tutorials and is it the type that show David playing with a video camera overhead?

Angelo and Barb and have made most of the points I would make. I have recently been going through all of Sudnow's writings about the piano and it has reminded me that beyond the basic format of the course there are a tremendous number of opportunities to get distracted by other musical topics which, to Ragtime Clown's point, isn't usually the most effective way to learn.

I'm reminded of a conversation with my friend Mary Louise Knutson (www.marylouiseknutson.com) who related a story about a student whom she asked what his goals at the piano were, to which he replied, "To play like you do." After a short but exasperated pause she replied, "Spend four to six hours a day, every day, at the piano for about ten years, then come back and we can lay out a plan".

The point being that we all tend to bite off more than we can chew when it comes to piano goals.

I have myself combined some more traditional teaching with the Sudnow Method but I had the Method pretty well in hand at the time and a teacher willing to experiment with me. I have also laboriously worked through some simple classical pieces in traditional notation. In the end I just decided I didn't have time to do both and settled for flipping through fake books playing songs and inviting my classical-trained friends over to listen and learn what I could from them - and they from me.

You might think about having a discussion with your current teacher about your thoughts and see what they suggest.

Ragtime Clown - it appears we were writing at the same time.

There is a video taken from a camera directly overhead. David resisted creating it, I never found it terribly helpful, and at the moment we don't have it available as a download.

The "dot songs" Barb refers to is the starting point. Simple representations of where to organize your fingers - encouraging thinking about shapes and clusters, not intended to be "read" like traditional notation, but as a simple way to get you to remember the shapes and sounds.

The truth of the matter is that Barb and Angelo can probably give you a better sense of a new student's perspective than I can.

Markham, have you any Sudnow style recordings I can listen to that you have recorded and demonstrate the method?