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Hey Jolly, I like the Jimmy Stewart comparison, since my favorite film is Vertigo. (Great score by Bernard Hermann, too!)

We better keep posting here, Zeldah Hanson has returned to the piano player's forum. Break out your flame-retardant clothing!

A little theological light - the verse about the camel and the eye of the needle refers to humility, not wealth. In Biblical times, cities were surrounded by walls. Gates were built into the walls such that a man on horseback or on camelback could not ride through the gate. The gates were so small and low they were known as "the eye of the needle". To bring a camel loaded with goods into the city it was necessary for the camel to bow down and scoot almost on its' belly through the gate.

Sometimes all those theology classes in college are useful!

It seems we have fallen into a cross-question, crooked-answer mode. There is much more agreement between Ib and Derick than disagreement. Derick IS a capitalist. Ib IS a philanthropist. The devil, of course, is in some of the small details (or maybe just perception of details).

As an aside, I have a brother-in-law that probably travels more than any five folks on the board put together. Every continent at least 3 times last year except Antarctica and Australia (though he made it there twice). He said some of the poverty he encountered in the former Easterm Bloc nations rivals anything on the face of the Earth. So kudos to anyone who helps through business or charity to make this part of the world a little better.

So then you have a problem with youreslf, I assume. Anyone who is gainfully employed does exactly that. Come on Derick, don't be such a hypocrite.



And here is part of the problem, Derick. You apparently believe that people who have fundamental beliefs paralleling Cork, or lb, or me, or many others here that I could name, have those beliefs out of heartlessness or coldness. I assure you that in most cases, it is quite the opposite. In one sense I'm glad that lb has enumerated his caring deeds, even though I wish he hadn't been pushed by your presupposition to have done so. I also know of others on this Forum whose personal and unpublicized actions would probably surprise you, given your apparent prejudgment of their hearts based on a misunderstanding of their politics. You see Derick, those of us who hold these positions feel that our attitudes are ultimately far more humane and caring - not to mention "fair" - than the opposing position. It is very difficult discussing these matters with someone like you, who suffers under an a priori dismissal of the possibility of a moral basis for our beliefs.



That's awfully nice of you.




How about this:

"Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All, therefore, whatever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not after their works; for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

"But all their works they do to be seen of men; they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, and love the uppermost places at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the market places, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

"But be not ye called Rabbi, for one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, who is in heaven. Neither by you called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

Let he who has ears to hear, etc.

Dwain

I've never practiced in this area of law, so I'm remembering this stuff from law school, but I have a vague recollection that price floors are allowed, although the manufacturer can't set a specific upper price limit. But I might be wrong. I will look it up at work and post a positively correct rule later. I do remember that the manufacturer cannot dictate the selling price.

WOW! It took 13 pages for the heat to get turn up; is this some kind of record?

(Not the pages, but for the gloves to come off.)

MANUFACTURER CANNOT DICTATE THE SELLING PRICE

Well, exactly.. and all the dealers here are watching one small store having a virtual feeding frenzy selling their identical pianos against a much larger store not in their territory,but within 1 hour drive, for 100's and 1000's $$ less!

It appears, that sometimes even the big guys hands are tied.

Or so it appears.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]

Rich,

I heard the version I quoted via heresay while on business in Paris. I certainly would not consider myself an authoritative source. But I like both versions.

T2

Derick wrote:

"CEO and Board of Directors are given a slap on the back, a firm hand-shake and their $7,000,000/year salary is augmented by a $14,000,000 bonus."

This will be my last post on the subject of corporate pay. As I said in my first note, I do believe a case can be made that some US CEO's are paid too much. However, do not think that all CEO's are paid millions of dollars; generally it is only the handful of very large corporations (and family-controlled corporations) that pay at that level. My boss makes less than $500,000 in salary at an NYSE-listed company . . .

(By the way, outside Board members are not paid millions of dollars. I'm sure that was not what you meant in your note.)

Getting back to the central issue, the core philosophy of what you seem to be espousing might be rendered thus:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

I've already seen that Utopia, and I prefer nasty old capitalism.

Cork

Jolly

I looked up what it meant, and I am sure not a philanthropist.

I want to clear a few things up. I do not go out of my way to help people. If I see someone though that needs help and is trying to help themselves I will do what I can to help them.

I also do not consider myself rich in the financial sense. Rich is a subjective term, how much is enough? I am comfortable, and what more can you ask for. I am rich though in family, job, health, and experience. These mean more than money.

Your brother in-law is right about the poverty in the Eastern block countries. People in the U.S. would not believe it if they saw it. The corruption is also unbelievable there. But for the most part the common person has a good attitude and is busting their butt's to improve themselves. The family bond is a lot tighter there than in the U.S.. Everyone in the family has to contribute in order to survive, and it is normal on Sunday afternoon to see the whole family, teenagers included, taking a walk on the city square.

The State police is funded by the state, but all the munincipal police depts. are funded by the city. Some of these villages that have no industry are very poor. I know one that the starter went out of their police car and they didn't have the money to fix it. They had to push start it. When they would stop someone for a violation, they would follow them till they were on a downgrade to pull them over(Gods truth).

How I got involved with the police and fire departments here is another story, but I found out that U.S. police arm patches and memorabelia is a valuable commodity here. The state police, who are well equipped, will trade equipment for these patches. The more well known the city in the U.S. the more valuable the item. I beat on everyone I knew in the U.S. that had any connection to a U.S. police dept or officer. I even called Steve Cohen, and he sent me a real nice package of stuff from around the D.C. area. The response was unbelievable, I got a ton of arm patches, training manuals, police and fire magazines, badges, and books.

It makes me feel good to do as much as possible to help these people, as they need help, and are doing everthing under their power to help themselves.

Thanks Jolly for the kind words even though they aren't deserved.

When I saw you called me a philanthropist, I was going to call your wife and tell her you told everyone on the internet that she was 41, then I looked it up in the dictionary

lb

Golly,
I leave for just a little over one day, and things just seem to go to heck! I sure had a lot to catch up on.

I've got 2 things to say. 1. Last night I was in absolute heaven at a St. Olaf Choir concert at Krannert Center (University of Illinois) The acoustics are GREAT there. The Chicago Symphony did some recording there. The concert was toooooooooo COOL
As usual, it ended with Beautiful Savior....which all Lutherans Love!

2. Just how will Derick EVER make it to the "good guy" list now?

THE CHOIR was in Pittsburgh last night. I wonder if RichG was here. I didn't even know Pittsburgh had a "Carnegie" hall.

Anyone chatting tonight? I'm going out for Chinese....really just to crack crab legs; but I'm hoping to chat later.

Actually, Pittsburgh was the birthplace of many Carnegie Halls, as well as the seemingly countless Carnegie Libraries.

Dwain

Derick's crimes:

1) Suggested an idea to eliminate price from the selection of a dealer. (It was just an idea.)

2) Stated a basic tenet of capitalism to lb which he took as a personal attack. (lb should stop twisting what is written just so he can start an argument and rattle on about how charitable he is.)

3) Recycled a nasty phrase on someone who used it on me first. (Wonder if I'll ever get an apology. Or even THREE like I was required to do. Probably not. I should have never confronted the frequently condescending Mr. Burton.)

4) Stated stealing, as sanctioned under capitalism, is wrong. (This was NEVER addressed by ANY poster. NEVER. God forbid someone should say something bad about capitalism and defend the 10 Commandments.)

If all this puts me on the bad-guy list, so be it.

Derick

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Derick ]

For the record, you are on my good-guy list. Let them string us up together (but only if they can sell tickets, and make a profit doing so.)

Yes, so.

Your "crimes" have nothing to do with stating a piano-related, or even a political or socio-economic belief. Anyone can have differing opinions about these things, and we all discuss these rather frequently around here. But when you take personal swipes at others - and then, try to weasel out of it, saying your (transparent) comments were merely misunderstood - and then to try to take the moral high ground by touting your religious beliefs, standing up on a cyber-soapbox piously offering to pray for people, and proclaiming yourself as the defender of the Ten Commandments - sorry, that's over my personal limit.

Derick's crimes, at least in Dwain's eyes:

1. Presupposing the motives of people he doesn't know.

2. Making insulting comments about people, and then acting shocked, misunderstood, and a victim when he's called for it.

3. Using his apparent faith as some sort of "superiority shield" to justify his presuppositions and slurs. Personally, this is Derick's bigest crime in my eyes.

I'm sure you disagree with my take on all this. Oh well, I suppose you could pray for me.

Dwain

Thank-you Shantinik, I appreciate it. I suspect there are others on this forum who feel the way we do. I just wish they'd come forward...

Derick

Dwain,

I have ignored your continuous SWIPES at me long enough. I'm now fed up with your lies.

Dwain said:

"1. Presupposing the motives of people he doesn't know.

2. Making insulting comments about people, and then acting shocked, misunderstood, and a victim when he's called for it.

3. Using his apparent faith as some sort of "superiority shield" to justify his presuppositions and slurs."


1) Tell me exactly where I "presupposed" someones motives. Support this Dwain. Quote me, I'm interested in hearing how I presupposed. I presupposed NOTHING.

2) Exactly what insulting comment did I make to lb? I said that when someone gets, something, someone else gives up something. What is insulting? I used the familiar concept of "eating someone else lunch." Have you ever heard "There is no free lunch" Dwain? lb twisted what I said and you jumped on his philanthropic bandwagon to come to his rescue.

3) I don't use my faith as a superiority shield. My comments about CEO's destroying peoples lives and then making huge bonuses in a bad year were never addressed. AND, it happens every day. It's stealing Dwain, sorry to inform you of this. Perhaps I shouldn't say anything religious, in that case I'll remind you that stealing is also against the law - unless you are the CEO of a major corporation.

Perhaps I irk you because I've struck a nerve?

Derick

So . . .

. . . how 'bout them Yamahas?!?

The Barbarian

All of your own words are on this same board for anyone to see. I'm not going to waste my time cutting and pasting them for you. You can go back and read them all if you'd like.

I stand behind every word I've said to you. I am not going to whine and complain about being misunderstood. You understood my criticisms perfectly.

As far as "striking a nerve," your implication is beneath contempt, and I will not grace it with a detailed defense similar to lb's. I'll just point out that you are mistakenly presupposing again.

In another sense though, you're right. You have struck a nerve, but not the one you think. You struck the mother lode of a nerve of mine when you tried to place yourself above others using a shield of religion. Your very un-religious condescenscion toward others (not your political beliefs), followed by your claim of defending the Ten Commandments, and your offer to pray for others, is what has made my blood boil.

For what it's worth, I've had agreements and disagreements with lb, and with shantinik, in the past. And we probably will in the future. But at least during those disagreements, we've never presupposed the other's motives, nor have we made personal attacks on each other. I'm convinced that even though we have particular disagreements on issues, I'd enjoy meeting and knowing either of them in person.

I don't care one bit whether you and I see eye to eye on issues. My differences with you have nothing to do with pianos, or capitalism, or stealing, or charity, or defending or disputing any other member on this board. But the way you treat other people, then claim to be a misunderstood victim, then try to cloak those actions in religion - that's too much. In plain, clear, unmistakable language, I think it's obnoxious. And I stand behind my criticism of you for it.

Dwain

...and to everyone else here, I apologize. I don't want Frank to step in and close a record-setting, and generally wonderful thread. Derick can make whatever response he wishes to me. I am done with the issue, and I won't discuss it any further.

Now about those Yamahas...I understand they use the V-Pro process for manufacturing their plates. I understand that that's a superior casting method, no?......

Dwain

And I want to make music with everyone!