Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum How many of your students have only a DP?

The OP asked:

I didn't answer, but the answer is 1. It's mine and it's a loaner because the student couldn't afford anything other than lessons. It happens to be the identical keyboard the OP currently uses, and it's not bad. I've used it for a number of events, especially the harpsichord setting, concerts on the mall with students, etc. The student in question has potential, which is why I decided to lend out my keyboard, at no charge, BTW, rather than have her quit lessons due to lack of an instrument. The parents could probably afford a piano, but choose not to get one, for what ever reasons shall remain with them (they have chosen not to share this information).

But I do not delude myself into believing it's a piano. It is not. Now, the discussion as to what would need to be done to turn a keyboard into an instrument that would be close to indistinguishable from a piano has been fought long and hard in these forums. It would cost probably ten times that of the very finest pianos to make a comparable electronic keyboard.

The secondary issue, which has already been answered in the posts above, is that a piano's touch, feel, and response is quite different from that of keyboards. They are similar. Just as a harpsichord, organ, Celeste, are similar. If you cannot feel or hear the difference, it simply means you have further to go on your musical journey. Hopefully, you'll have the chance someday to appreciate what the piano offers the musician.

I assume that is the Yamaha Clavinova CLP-124 you are referring to and if so I agree completely that it's more a keyboard than a piano, it's ancient history as far as digital pianos go and you are sorely mistaken as well about the feel and responsiveness of modern digital pianos.

Have you tried any of the new models in the stores? Just a simple yes or no please?

I still seriously want to hear your opinion of why "They limit themselves when they choose this route." You didn't answer it, but attempted to sidestep it as you did with the entire post above.

Kennychafin, on any digital, am I able to feel the actions of a hammer in my fingertips? Will I hear the resonance of a vibrating string spread its way along the sound board in secondary sound, and will I be able to manipulate that resonance? If I release the damper and play a chord, will all the strings reverberate according to their nature, and if I lower the damper but hold down the keys, will the colour of this reverberation change? Can I get the feeling that all these subtle properties of real objects made of wood and tight wire will respond in real time in a real way to my touch and actions? Am I able to manipulate these things, and create the sound that I want to make, in the manner that I want to make them? Rather than having the instrument do it for me? Can I become sensitized and responsive to an instrument that has no natural response?

Perhaps John was not able to answer the question of limitations, but I have attempted to do so twice now. Certainly there are digitals out there which are far superior to the finicky Samick that I'm struggling with right now, but I can't believe that any can behave like an acoustic.

Keystring, the basic answer to this is YES. I'll ask you the same question I asked John. Have you actually tried any of the current Digital Pianos? Absolutely you can feel the hammer action -- even on my low-end Casio PX320. As I explained the creation of the sound is very complex and not at all unlike what actually happens in an acoustic piano. And yes there are digital pianos out that there that do everything you are implying that they don't do, which is why I'm still asking for a simple answer to "WHAT LIMITATIONS?" (not what a particular piano does or doesn't do).



I'm curious, what Samick model are you struggling with? And is it doing or not doing the things you describe above?

I'm not going to claim that a digital piano is exactly the same as an acoustic/analog, but nor is any given acoustic/analog the same as any other one, particularly between manufacturers, styles and models. But do they have similar characteristics such as touch, responsiveness, sound quality, timber the answer is yes for both acoustic/analog pianos and digital pianos.

It's a GX100C and it is definitely inadequate for anything I want to do. I know that it is quite lower end.

I did once play a super-expensive super-fancy digital in a store. It was responsive and "perfect", but IT was creating the sound. I need the actual thing to be there: the strings etc. It was some years ago.

Ken, I see you are a clarinetist. Do you not respond to the vibrations of the reed, the sense of air flow, maybe your instrument vibrates to the sound as you play it (I don't play clarinet, but I do play a number of instruments) which is all part of the act of playing? That's what I miss in the DP.

Thanks, I'll check out the GX100C....Hmm not finding much, the one google listing I got lists it as a "keyboard" so maybe that's the issue....not sure.

Anyway thanks for your response.

Yes I am a clarinet player, but have lost most of my technique at this point.

Absolute the feedback (which is what it's called in a "systems" sense) is always crucial to any musical instrument and certainly the low-end keyboards don't do much to emulate a piano, I'm not disputing that at all, but what I am saying is that the current high end digital pianos are all about doing exactly that in trying to provide a similar if not identical playing experience as an acoustic/analog instrument.

I'm intrigued by your statement "It was responsive and perfect but IT was creating the sound" Does not the acoustic piano create the sound as well?

Wow! You're correct! I just got off the phone with them. They became a Kawai dealership 1 week ago. I started my search for a Kawai piano (acoustic and digital) just before that, when the only dealership in WA was in Bremerton (across Puget Sound from Seattle), and it has no digitals. The Prosser store, according to the salesperson I spoke with, is also a Roland dealer (but she didn't know about the forthcoming Roland V-Piano). Prosser has both acoustic and digital Kawais (even a Shigeru Kawai!). The list of digitals she gave me: CP177, CP117, CA71, CA91, CA71, CP155, CP175. I asked about the CE200 and CA51. They're coming, but not there yet.

2 days ago I ordered the CE200 online. See my post. I just called WI and put the order on hold. Cancelling will cost $30. I think I'll be able to get down to the Prosser store this weekend, not to buy, but to see and try the first Kawais since the Kawai upright (a K3?) I had to sell decades ago because of a chronic basketball injury to my right hand's little finger. I'll visit again when the CE200 and CE51 come in. And even then I may wait until the V-Piano is available here. And while I'm waiting, I might as well visit the nearest Yamaha dealer, in Tacoma, 30 miles from me.

So thanks for the information, John!

That sounds like great news! Isn't this place wonderful!


Oh and I'll be very interested in hearing what you find out and what you end up buying!

Just because that is what they are trying to achieve doesn't mean they actually achieve it.

I have been on a two year quest to find the right digital piano for me. I also own an acoustic upright piano which I bought brand new. I bought a Roland FP-7 at one point but decided it wasn't for me and have recently sold it.

In the last 2 years I have played the entire Yamaha CVP 400 series, CLP 200 and 300 series, the P85, P140, CP33 and CP300. I have also played the Roland HP series and the FP4/7 and quite a few Casios and some of the newer Kawai models. As part of that search I've also been fortunate enough to play lots of acoustic pianos, the highlight of which was an absolutely gorgeous brand new Steinway Model M.

I am currently awaiting the release of the Yamaha P155 which I reckon will be the one I go for. I have both the space and the money for a CLP380 (I prefer Yamaha over Roland) but it's not worth all the extra money as it's simply no match for my acoustic upright. I need a digital for quiet practice time, both at night and also to spare my family from listening to my half hour long scales routine!! Hopefully the P155 will be adequate for the job when I can't play my acoustic.

There are so many things digitals don't do as well as an acoustic. The main things for me is there is no feedback through the keys or pedals when you play. You are not connected to a digital they way you are to an acoustic. The pedalling on a digital is far from that on an acoustic piano. You don't have all the subtle options you have on a real piano. It's not much better than on/off on any digital I've played.

The sound is in the same bracket. No matter how they try it still doesn't sound the same as an acoustic. The difference between watching something on TV vs being there in person. Even in this world of digital satellite with HD, surround sound etc., it's still not the same as being there.

The feel of the keyboard is probably the area where digitals are getting the closest. The actions are very good as far as weight, touch etc. are concerned. I'm looking forward to having a go on an Avant Grand when it is released to see if their Tactile Response System can complete the touch/feel experience.

Well, what would you rather: lessons on an electronic keyboard, or no lessons? Developing musicianship on an electric keyboard, or not doing it at all? Playing on what you can get, or giving up and watching yet another worthless program on television?

No, they're not a piano; this class (with sequencers and sound modules) is an instrument in its own right, and as with acoustic pianos, there are better and worse ones. I have both; for a long time I could afford only a digital... and I did use, it, I did learn, I developed within its, and my, capabilities. When I could afford an acoustic, and lived in a place where I could play it without the neighbors calling the police, and could have lessons with a real piano teacher, that's what I did.

It seems to me that living beyond our means is a problem that is coming home to roost for quite a few people. Making the most we can of what is really available to us is, in my view, a commendable thing. That is not to say we need to foster delusions about digital v. acoustic, or to fail to take a real look about our priorities: the posts about that really hit the mark. But I would rather see students encouraged, rather than smacked down. Encouraging them to have higher goals is a great thing, and I hope that in time, many of them will reach them. Meanwhile, progress is available...

Bravo for you! At least you have some actual hands on experience with digital pianos!

It true that the quest for a similar playing experience to an acoustic/grand is never finished I guess, but sometimes the goal changes, who's to say that an acoustic grand is the be-all end-all eh? I think there are many things which actual are an advantage to Digital Pianos -- portability, no need for tuning or furniture polish, ability to practice without disturbing others, ability to emulate different models of pianos etc.

I get the distinct impression that many of those who rail against digital pianos are simply doing it to maintain the status quo without any real knowledge of what's out there (doesn't seem to be the case for you though).

I've got to agree about the pedals (something that had not been touched on yet) they pretty much suck for what I've seen so far, but I have not tried many of the options that are available.

As far as the sound, certainly that is going to depend on the particular digital piano and speakers, etc. etc. all kinds of variables there. Interesting thing is that many people probably couldn't tell the difference and particularly in an ensemble setting.


Thanks for some real-world input on this topic!

Teaching break - I rail against calling a dandelion a rose.

In my youth, I attended a concert at Grieg's home, with an excellent pianist playing his compositions on the original piano. Unfortunately, seating was limited, so they used a PA system to pipe the sound outside, where the rest of us sat.

I felt cheated. There was no difference than listening to a recording. I didn't get to hear the actual piano, but an electronic substitution for it.

There is a difference, but explaining it is much like trying to explain colors to a blind person. It just cannot be done.

I am not going to run out to try every new product that comes along, just to see if it's almost as good as a piano. I'll just stick with the piano, thank you.

Question - why is it so important to you to call something which isn't a piano, a piano?

Still waiting on your answers. Once more your and trying to avoid answering. Unless that partial answer above is a NO YOU HAVE NOT TRIED THEM you just rail against them.

I think my very first reaction to you was right on target.

Kenny,

Your 1st reaction is way off target. John is right when he states a digital piano is not an acoustic piano. I normally refer to digital pianos as digital pianos and acoustic pianos as "real" pianos.

As I pointed out above, and you agreed with me, there are many areas where a DP simply does not compare to a real piano.

So I fail to see what your point is, and why you are attacking one of the most valuable members in the Teacher's Forum.

I have played all of the DP's I have as I am looking to buy one to take advantage of the fact you can play with headphones on when I can't play my acoustic, but you don't need to have played all the ones I have to realise that none of them is a satisfactory substitute to a real piano for a serious piano student.

Kenny
Ever been to a concert by a great classical pianist on a digital instrument?? Any idea why? I bet they could easily get labeled as say a "Roland Artist" and get the highest of the high tech digital.So access is not the problem.
One of the main tenets of learning to play the piano, is to learn how to interface with this percussive instrument and make it sing. A digital instrument uses different principles. Not sure what sort of answers you are looking for. High end digitals are widely available and many of us have played them at dealers. The more expensive ones have a much beter touch than the cheaper ones, and could sound better than a crappy acoustic, but they are not an acoustic piano and you cannot learn all of piano technique on them. There is a niche for them for the many reasons already cited, most of which have to do with money and convenience. But if you want to call yourself a pianist, you need to play the acoustic piano.

I don't think anyone is saying that a digital piano is the same as a piano. There are qualities of a high-quality acoustic that cannot yet be reproduced on a digital instrument. Maybe someday that will happen, but not yet.

The point that I think the DP proponents should be trying to make is that digital instruments do capture many of the important qualities of acoustic pianos, and do it in a way that eliminates many of the acoustic piano's drawbacks -- noise that can disturb neighbors for apartment-dwellers, space issues that come with grand pianos, maintenance costs, difficulty of high-quality recording by amateurs, cost, etc.

Given that, and the fact that many, many household pianos out there are poorly maintained, why not accept the digital piano as a valid option? It's not an entirely different instrument..I'd call it simply another class of piano with its own advantages and disadvantages. Wouldn't you recommend a high-quality digital over a spinet or used upright with a questionable maintenance history? "Acoustic" shouldn't trump all other concerns.

Many of us would like to have well-maintained, high-quality pianos, but when that's not possible we all accept shortcomings in our instruments. We buy low-cost second (or third, or fourth) hand instruments of questionable quality, we limit our playing time to respect neighbors, and we buy digital.

MHO is that both the "acoustic is always better than digital" and "digital is the same as acoustic" arguments are silly. There's a continuum of pianos out there, ranging from very good to very bad, and I'd put good digitals somewhere inside that spectrum. They don't default to the extreme low end, nor do they touch the extreme high end...but most of us are in the middle somewhere anyway.

edit: Of course a serious pianist will always want a good "real" piano, but a good digital can serve many people quite well.

Look, you're not even understanding what my first reaction was. Let me spell it out to you. JOHN IS A GRAND PIANO BIGOT.

He's not even tried the latest Digital pianos. Digital pianos are pianos as much so as any other piano. Just just said so above. Of course that depends on your blinders I guess and how define a piano. Some apparently define a piano as ACOUSTIC ONLY. Well if they do, they are wrong, that's not what the rest of the world does.

I totally disagree with your assumption that NONE of them is a satisfactory substitute. That is just simply wrong.

Straw man argument.

Thank you Buck.

You are free to disagree with me but I am not making any assumptions. I am simply stating my opinion. It does not mean I am blinkered, a bigot nor can you state that I must be wrong because I don't agree with you. I simply have a different opinion, that's all.

I stand by my view - for a serious piano student a DP is not a suitable substitute. You have a different view, fair enough.

I will only point out one more thing. You are attacking people who you believe don't have any experience of DP's yet you yourself stated earlier that you have little experience of acoustic pianos. You are comparing DP's to something that you have stated you know little about so on what basis can you attack others for something which you are doing yourself?