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...and now just imagine... the world of our fathers and grandfathers who didn't only have to compete with about 10 major makers.......but virtually HUNDREDS of them,sometimes in the very same area or even same town!!

In the grand old days of piano building every company was striving for uniqueness and individuality whereas today there seems to be an incredible amout of 'streamlining' and 'sameness' to appeal to huge masses of
consumers and let there be no doubt:

the world is not only dominated by oriental makers[in terms of sheer size!] but also by the emergence of the oriental[and WORLD!] CUSTOMER in hitherto unknown numbers,each one of whom
appears to utterly detest the mere thought of the 'unknown', including the evil tenants of unpredictability,uncertainty,unfamiliarity
or....God forbid....individuality!

Net result is that the manufacturers are producing 'less and less' of what appears to be even a hint of a difference between all the products on the market with Pearl River
starting to [almost]look like Boesendorfer...
...perhaps [soon] sounding somewhat similiar
as well [ I said 'similiar'] with differences
becoming increasingly so subtle [I know some of you are gonna kill me for this!]that it will require more and more astute players to even know much of a difference!

Proof??

Just let me hide all the names on all pianos
and invite the town's best players.
I've once done exactly that...only to have people and some very 'knowledgeable'teachers
leave my store with red faces never to set foot on such a place of [sweet] horror again!

Then, why the heck, is this discussion even going on in the first place??

Anybody 'good enough' should be able to sit on piano and after playing it for a minute should know the price is .....as opposed to the other one besides it which is only.....

Confusion??

Folks....you ain't seen nothin yet!

Please don't forget...we're all in the same boat!!

Maybe one day, all pianos have the same name
and price.

We may as well call them 'Karl Marx'

And by the way....they're all FREE!

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com

1st of all: pique, $2K as we all know, is enough for several months of grocery bill..heck with 2K I can buy two Yamaha P80 (sorry I couldnt resist) and have change left for CDs to last me for months..That's enough reason for one to get p155ed to find out he is paying more than someone else..

Larry.. yes, its funny.. everybody dont want to pay list price, especially if someone else dont pay list price..

While we are chatting about prudent purchase decisions.. Just as I was getting sick and tired of my old upright, hands itching and twitching wanting to sign a $15K purchase of a Yamaha grand, I had a friend over to play on my old piano...wow, what can I say !! I realised that its not the upright that has problem... its me !! Just because my piano sounds terrible when I played it... doesnt mean someone else cant make it sing.. Call me stupid, call me cheap.. 15K aint leaving my pocket........ yet. Anybody had this experience ??

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: subarus ]

Derick

Forgive me if I seem cruel and obnoxious.

What do I owe to that young couple. Nothing!
They made the decision to get married and have a kid. Everything in life is a decision, and when you make that decision, you should have to live with it.

Everyone that got screwed in this Enron deal deserved it. They went into it of their own free will, expecting to get rich. They may have been deceived, but they were expecting returns way above normal and should have been more cautious. The same thing with the S&L's a few years back. These people invested, eyes open, with their own free will. They were greedy, and deserve what happened.

I dropped out of school got married and had a kid at 17. I worked 3 jobs to support my family, and I have never taken a dime from any social program or organization. At 22 I had my second kid, I bought my first house, had my GED, and was taking night classes at the local university. The house was $5500. and needed a lot of work. At 32, I had three kids, had a degree, and was on my fourth fix-it up house. I got by on from 9 to 5, I got ahead after 5. No one ever gave me anything except opportunity, and I took advantage of it.

It really tic's me off when someone thinks that I owe something to somebody who made stupid decisions. I have created opportunity for a lot of people, some have taken advantage some haven't. I don't owe anyone any more than that.

lb

My point Derick, is that it is extremely simple to figure out almost exactly what the cost of the piano is to the dealer. Just buy the Piano Book supplement, look up the piano, and take 40% off. How much simpler could it get? You don't have to figure out which trim package it has, or if it has power seats, or anything.


This thread seems to have taken a turn where we are trying to devise a way to predetermine prices for "fairness". This is a dangerous idea. Here are the simple facts: someone has already devised a system where the economy was set up to be "fair". It's called communism. I don't want to have to explain why capitalism is superior to communism. My posts in this thread are beginning to be too long anyway. So I'll just sum it up this way: when you level the playing field for everyone, you take away competition. And when you take away competition, you get mediocrity.

You then get your choice: A Bechstein (West German) or a Red October (Russian). If you've never seen a Red October piano, let me describe it for you. Take the packing crates from a Chinese piano, hand them to a six year old, give him a hand saw, a screw driver and a coil of fence wire, and tell him to build a piano.

This is a capitalist system we live in. And it's the greatest economic system in the world. It encourages competition, which causes companies to strive to build something better than the other guy. The upside of a capitalist system is that you get a wide variety of choices and qualities to choose from. The downside is you have to do your research yourself, because part of that competition is the stores that sell the products you want have only a few things they can do to attract your business. And one of those things is price.

I've tried to hold my tongue on this, but I cannot hold it any longer. The consumer does not have a right to expect all products be priced the same. And if you thought it through, you wouldn't want it to be that way, either. You're talking about squelching free trade, and the resulting competition that it inspires. Far better that you do your homework and learn to make good deals when you buy things. The information is there for you. All you have to do is get it.

Now, I'm going to make a statement that I have made several times in the past, so don't take this as directed at you, Derick. But the simple fact is the cost of an item is irrelevant, it is only one part of the equation, and is flat none of the consumer's business. You are buying a product and all the attendant services and other benefits as the dealer you buy from includes. You are buying a package. You can't level the field at the retail level by simply determining the cost of the piano and hammering the dealer with it.

It is all relative to the money involved. For example - has anyone here called Pepsi and asked them to give you a breakdown of the cost of materials in the can so you can determine if 75 cents is a fair price for a Pepsi? Or do you just buy yourself a Pepsi? Tell me the difference in not doing this with a Pepsi, but doing this with a piano if it is fairness in the marketplace you're looking for? When you drive through McDonalds and hand them $1.49 for a soft drink, do you think about the fact that it cost them more for the paper cup than it did the drink in it, and all together you're talking about at most 6 cents in cost? Of course not. So in a nutshell, it isn't the principle of fairness we're talking about, it it? It all boils down to the fact that we're talking about more money when we buy a piano doesn't it? It has nothing to do with "fairness" at all. You (the collective public you) are being hypocrites on the subject.

There is a difference in getting a good deal and raping the system. Transactions should be a win-win situation, or they shouldn't take place. I agree the customer should be charged a fair price. I don't agree that it should come at the expense of the person selling it. To try and make the case that this somehow has something to do with "fairness" is disingenuous.

Let's get back on track here. A good deal involves more than money. Trying to set up a fixed price "fair price" system so that the consumer doesn't have to do his due diligence is completely against the free market system, it's heading toward communism, and as such it would do nothing long term other than to guarantee the consumer complete mediocrity in both products and services.

If you want a fair price when you buy a piano, don't try to convert our capitalist system of economics into a communistic economy with Marxist overtones. Just do your due diligence, and then buy from an honest dealer. There are plenty of signs for you to be able to tell whether the dealer is honest or not long before the subject of the final price arrives in the conversation.

Did anyone else catch that little gem in Norbert's post? The one about inviting over the town's best piano players to try out "unmarked" pianos?

Talk about fun! Talk about embaressment! Talk about something to talk about! As the cajuns say, "If!"

Has anybody else tried this hilarious scenario out? Omigod, can you imagine the look on the face of the "professional" who picks the Korean or Chinese piano over the Boserstein!

Possibly the end of hautiness and piano pretensivenous as we now know it! :p

Dammit, it must be those acoustically superior foam filled rims!

The funny thing is that those guys selling the 'king on the hill' type of pianos [at almost ANY PRICE!] must be belly-laughing at this whole thread by now!!

[Of course, nobody is exactly talking about THEM guys here,right?]

They must be thinking: KINSAHPS!!

KEEP IT NICE,SIMPLE & HIGHLY ............
.................PROFITABLE,STUPID!!

You buy MY GREAT BRAND NAME & are [anyway ]willing to pay MY price[!]...move it, Pal..
NEXT ONE PLEASE!

"Bottomfeeders and envy-stricken loonies of the world....haggle out your lowly problems elsewhere...er..perhaps the 'Forum'..meeting place of the world's crazies philophizing about 'fair' prices and other institutionally certified nonsense"..

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]

Jolly
Last year the Ibach company built three identical pianos. They equiped one with a Renner action, one with a Langer action, and one with a Detoa action. These pianos were all set up and prepped by one technition.

They invited several professionals to come in and play them and to choose the best one. Guess what? They couldn't tell the difference.

As there is a big price difference in these actions, I asked them if they were going to change from Renner. They said no because the public wants Renner.

lb

Somebody here seems to be unreconciled to our capitalist system and seems dangerously close to touting a command economy where government will have to step in and calibrate prices to include a "fair" profit margin. That quickly degenerates into what has already been tried and has left wrecked economies and piles of corpses. I will stick with what we have (with all its warts) and if I pay more than someone else for the same item, well I will try to be a little sharper next time. If I manage to get a good deal, that's great. Some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you. Life goes on. There is little "justice" this side of the grave. Deal with it.

I wonder if these three pianos will still sounds alike in 10 years time? --> Durability and choice of material --> lower "life time" cost due to lower warranty returns.

Besides touch and feel, manufacturer consider consistency an important factor. Did the technician spent the same amount of time on each piano? or did he spent less time with the Renner because it is more consistent than Langer?

Is Ibach going for the "Intel Inside" marketing strategy?

What if Ibach produce three piano lines, all with same cabinetry but differing in actions only, and priced them according to their cost, would more consumer buy the cheaper one with Langer than the more expensive one with Renner?

florets

If the consumer based their decision on the advice they got on this forum, I would say they would buy the Renner 3 to 1 even at a higher price.
lb

Derick

I have to sign off for a couple days. My wife and I just spent a couple days in Prague CZ and are getting ready to drive to Vienna Austria for a couple days. I just want you to know that when we have dinner tonight I will be thinking about that young couple that I took food out of their mouth. It won't bother me though, because I earned it.

lb

One would never find me "dissing" the capitalist, free-market system. I just keep waiting for that system to build a better mousetrap (i.e. way to sell pianos). Why does it need fixing? Because out of 15 dealers I went to, the majority lied or used slimy tactics or quoted ridiculously high prices. I even feel less about Faust Harrison since I heard that they have picked up Estonia (not that there is anything inherently wrong with that -- it's a great line, but my problem lies in how they marketed themselves as exclusively M&H dealers because that was the ONE and ONLY new piano WORTHY of them selling ... obviously it's not, but I bet few customers pick up on the "marketing discrepancy").

So this leaves me with three, count 'em three, dealers I would've felt comfortable with. Out of 15? Something's wrong here!

Now, I didn't get to visit Rich or Larry or Norbert. They may very well be exceptions to the rule. The question is, Why is there this rule?

I'm sorry, but for those who have looked closely at the piano business, we are left with the sense that something needs fixing (though not "price-fixing!").

I understand people's desire to see a cost price, like they THINK they're seeing with cars. My husband is in one industry that HAS to disclose all fees (the mortgage business, that is). Of course, people try to dicker the fees (points) down. But in the end, the mortgage industry has survived with full disclosure.

No one wants to drive piano dealers out of business. Just the seedy ones.

penny

We are the "Meeting" (as opposed to "Church")-type Friends. But I will be doing a speaking tour in southern Ohio and Indianapolis in early September, as older daughter is thinking of going to Earlham College in Richmond (I have my fingers crossed, except we are not superstitious!), and so wants to go visit.

We also want to go visit all the Quaker Underground Railroad sites.

How does this relate to pianos? Well -- barely. Friends in this area of the world, besides doing the Underground Railroad thing, also organized "free trade stores", meaning the goods sold (at fixed prices of course) were certified not to have been made with slave labor.

Enough to make any good capitalist cringe!

So far I think Dan had the best post. Can we make it to 13? It's my favorite number.

OK, fine, this thread is terrific and we all know it. Because of formatting we can keep this growing and it will never end. But already there have been some IMHO erroneous notions here all around. I’d like to put these out in clearer perspective.

CEO’s are overpaid! No they’re not. Their pay is based on their responsibilities for running a HUGE enterprise. The strains are unimaginable to the average ordinary guy. I wouldn’t trade places with any of them. I have known a few. They are a weird breed of man; something is usually driving them from within and has done so for a long time. They are usually married to their business. As long as they can keep their juggling act going they stay on top. But most of them have health problems that eventually spell their retirement or death. What can they do with so much money? It’s a drug. They can’t spend it all that’s for sure. Now as for the CEO’s of piano companies, rarely do any of them make what the CEO of an automobile company makes.

And here’s our first difference: cars are not like pianos. First, they are not like pianos in the uniformity of product. One might assume that where levels of uniformity are achievable that the CEO gets paid more and I’m fairly certain this is true; the CEO of Yamaha makes far more than the CEO of Bosendorfer.

Carrying this still farther, not even two identical models of any piano are exactly alike, though with some brands, especially Yamaha, these differences are minimized. Even so, two identical C5’s or C7’s will be enough different (a Southernism) that one might actually prefer one over the other.

The relative importance of this subtlety increases as one gets into more rarified brands and models. For instance, at the time I saw and played them, Beethoven in NYC had two marvelous Estonia pianos. They were in gorgeous prep, concert ready. Now what if they were unable to sell those pianos and decided to deliberately let them go? After any significant length of time, a year of not being tuned, these pianos may have degenerated so much that one could hardly tell one was playing a top flight piano. We seem to have lots of stories about poorly prepped Steinways from time to time on this forum, but all anyone needs to experience is a really fully prepped one, like the Hamburg O that was in Darrell Fandrich’s shop when I first visited them two years ago, and all memories of all the out of prep Steinways fade away quickly.

If one is looking for a top grade piano simply for status, one will probably never know the importance of such subtleties and can just as well go right ahead and order one, any of them, for ?% over dealer costs and, sight unseen, get a piano that any good technician can put in good working order. And such a customer will always have the satisfaction of knowing they bought at the lowest possible price. But such a person has lost the pursuit of the soul of a musical instrument. I’m going to return to this point in future so hold on….

One day I walked into a Steinway dealership. They had two or three M’s, a couple L’s, a couple S’s. I looked at the prices. The same models were marked at slightly different prices, usually the wood cases were higher than straight ebony but not always. I have been to other stores where all the pianos were the same price by model but they varied all over the place in terms of their prep and their soul.

The way I see the piano business is that there must be dealers for different kinds of customers. As indicated, I think the idea of standard prices for even identical models is some kind of idiot’s commie dream that bears no resemblance to economic realities. I feel the same about cars. But this is about pianos.

The other day I met a man whose daughter was ready to trade up. To tell the truth his eight year old was pretty good for her age. She had one ingredient that is hard to miss and harder to engender; interest, and it showed in her playing. But their piano was a real stinker, a you guessed it, Wurlitzer spinet. They must have made millions of them! And the guy said he only wanted to spend $4,000 max on a new piano. I asked him if it had to be new. Yes. OK, I asked if a trade in mattered to him and he said no, that he knew his present piano was only worth hauling to the dump, which is more than I can say for half the piano owners out there who think that an old piano must be worth something even if it was never very good to begin with. We’ve been around this a thousand times already including that many of the old no name uprights sold a hundred years ago for less than a thousand dollars, brand new. So, I’ll just pass on.

So, to make a long story short, I steered the guy to a local dealer who sells Kohler & Campbell professional uprights in a variety of furniture styles for a bit less than what he wants to pay. I instructed him to stay clear of anything shorter than these as they are IMHO not much of an improvement long term over what he has. This dealer is an authorized one for Kohler & Campbell, which I think matters far more the lower one goes in the piano business, or shall I say the cheaper.

If one buys something like a Petrof grand or a Bechstein, one is getting a level of quality that frankly makes a guarantee far less important as there is simply far less likely to go seriously awry with these makes, certainly again nothing that a good piano technician couldn’t put right in a jiffy. That’s supposedly why one pays more for these pianos. The cheaper one goes on the other hand, the less attention to the details of the craft of piano making are more likely, or there may be out and out shortcuts to make a manufacturing process cheaper (Larry already alluded to this in his post trashing Yamaha, although what he said can pretty well be applied to many other cheap piano makers).

Then above the “Dave’s World of Pianos” style of dealership with acres of inventory, carrying a dozen or so low end makes (for which they’d better be authorized dealers) there are a few levels of more serious dealers. The more serious the dealer, the higher the prices, usually the negotiating room is less and the quality of pianos available can be stratospheric. But who then would know this?

Serious pianists would and a few top flight piano techs who also play the piano well. Maybe a few listeners with distinguished ears would know too. But likely the numbers are fractional at best. The best dealership for this customer is the custom dealer where authorization means little or nothing because the quality of the product is unparalleled. A custom dealer, of which there are many more in Europe than here, may have half a dozen grand pianos all by different makers. Are they authorized dealers? Maybe yes, maybe no. In Germany selling German pianos, more likely they are. If there were a market for American pianos in Germany and that market was particularly hot, I doubt very much whether half of the dealers would be authorized.

Before going too far to make points against Larry’s (with whom I am in far more agreement here than with most other viewpoints, especially concerning dealer authorization), I can honestly say that the kind of customer pique is, or ME for that matter, we are going to look for the soul in an instrument as much as the make and model. It’s nice when one is in a store where there is so much to like (rare but it does happen occasionally), but pique was pretty much forced to scour the continent looking for “her” piano for all the reasons she has given. She knew that she would have to rely on the reach of an outfit like Beethoven, a store where there is very little that is brand new by the way. She bought a top quality piano, had it endure the tribulations of travel to her remote home and I’m certain will do their best for her. I’m happy to note that they have. Now had Larry been an authorized Grotrian dealer and pique had happened into his store and FOUND HER PIANO, I’m quite sure, warranty or no, that Larry would have done the same for her. This is part of being a big league dealer.

I maintain that a big league dealer never has to have acres of inventory. In fact this is one way you know you aren’t dealing with a high end dealer. If you walk into a store and all you see is half a dozen grands and no uprights of any kind, pay attention, you are going to have to pay more for each piano there than you would for a piano out of a huge lot. The quality is likely going to be better too.

There is a certain present reading of the piano market that Asian pianos are cheap and German pianos are all good. This may or may not be the case. But again, the numbers count; quality is usually in inverse proportion to quantity produced. There are a number of posts that seem to be suggesting that one can find dozens if not hundreds of these high end grand pianos when in fact there may be only a handful of the really great grand pianos READY TO BE SOLD AS NEW in the whole country. Grotrians are pretty rare as are Bluthners, Steingrabers and Bechsteins. Try and find a new genuine Ibach for sale anywhere.

Whenever someone asks me about buying pianos, as they usually do after talking to me for any length of time, I usually try and figure out WHAT THEY REALLY NEED and WHAT THEY CAN TRULY AFFORD. Then I steer them to the dealers I think do the best job of preparing their pianos for sale. Will the dealer stand behind the piano? This is as I say far more important to the mass consumer than the pianist. I do not mean a PEE-an-ist either. A PEE-an-ist is what everyone calls someone whose repertoire only extends to the church hymnal or rudimentary pop arrangements. Such used to play all the worst pianos around quite happily.

No, a pee-AN-ist is not just any piano player. This is as much their joy as a reward for years of hard work as it is their curse, to know why one Yamaha C5 is better than another identical one sitting right next to it. With senses trained to expect and compel great music out of a piano, one may very well scour a continent to find “their” piano.

I could have quoted something of value from all of you, but aubarus hit the proverbial nail….



There are still things that escape me too, like enormously complicated origami. Those who do this in hugely complicated patterns simply amaze me and I can thoroughly enjoy being amazed.

Now no consumer has the right to expect or demand the same price for identical merchandise but put another way, part of competition in a capitalist environment assures that some people will simply never have the opportunity to buy something as cheaply as another person. It’s called the inelasticity of opportunity. It means that if you happen to walk into Larry’s store and find that he has “your” piano and you simply can’t afford it and worse make a big stink about what HE paid for the piano, as if YOU have any right at all determining what he can make on each piano……well, someone else is bound to end up with it and they might even get a small break simply for being a GRATEFUL customer.

What really astounds me is the lack of good will among people generally. When someone says they got a better deal on an identical product, even if as I said, no two pianos, with the possible exceptions of low end Yamahas, are exactly alike, the response is never, “well, good for you,” but rather, “I feel stupid and cheated because I didn’t luck out like you did.” This really isn’t good folks. Your character is showing.

But I REALLY liked it when Larry took off his gloves and said…..POW!


If I were him, and could afford to do so, which he may or may not be able to do, I’d make it a pretty personal decision on MY part, who gets the deals from me. Anyone shooting their long ignorant trap off about “fairness” just might be shown the fair end of my front door.

Hope I can still get this on page 13.

wow.. so many words that I cannot understand, but this issue interest me so I have to ask.. so in essense ,does a consumer has the right to expect or demand the same price for identical pianos ?

assuming:
1) There are 2 identical pianos despite contrary arguments from learned sceptics.

2) The purchase includes the standard delivery, tunings and manufacturers waranty.. nothing else

3) In a state governed democratically, practices capitalistic, free enterprise ,competitive form of economy, populated by peace loving, intelligent (see note) and affluent society.

note: some are who thinks they are more intelligent than other likes to label others otherwise.. but make no mistake about it everybody is intelligent *wink*

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: subarus ]

Many of you are completely misunderstanding what I am saying.

I readily admit that capitalism is the best economic system the world has ever seen. However, it is far from utopia. Capitalism has warts, big warts. But these warts can be removed and make society a better place for everyone.

Some of you seem to feel that I'm a Communist, or that I want government to step in and regulate prices, or that those that 'have' owe something to the 'have nots' who have made, to use lb's terminology 'stupid decisions'.

So let me jump to lb's post. I may have made a statement that you did not like, but I was very respectful. You, however, were rude and condescending. I did not say you owed anything to this hypothetical couple who made a 'stupid decision' (your words) and had a baby (which sounds a lot less stupid than some of your own choices such as dropping out or school and having a kid at 17). All I stated was the obvious, when someone takes, someone else has to give up. I said this because you felt some sense of entitlement to a better price on a car simply because you bought a new car every year from the same dealer. You may have worked hard in your life, but so have I. Perhaps you wouldn't have had to have work half has hard had you not made the choices that you did. I certainly did not make the choices you made and have worked as hard if not harder than you have. Yet I do not feel any sense of entitlement.

At to your comments about the Enron employees, you are either very cold-hearted or incredibly misinformed. Enron, like many companies, matched employees' 401(k) contributions in company stock and prohibited them from selling that stock until age 55. Why did they prohibit them from selling the stock? Because it pumped up the price of the stock. Now the sh*t hit the fan, the stock is worthless and Joe and Jane Average who worked for Enron have NOTHING in their 401K. But Mr. and Mrs. Board of Director making millions of dollars every year, walked away with their millions intact. Now tell me, WHO was greedy? The pennyless employees who couldn't sell their stock? They got what they deserve? If that's what you believe, life has been far too kind to you.

Which leads me to Cork's post. Quite frankly, I'm shocked. Far be it from me to judge someone else's ethics, but I am as surprised at what you said as I am by what lb said about Enron employees. How can anyone feel not a twinge of guilt, and actually be proud of the fact that their company let people go and they reaped the benefits of the healthier bottom-line at the expense of the pain and suffering of the former employees?

That reminds me of a song from when I was 6 or 7 called One Tin Shouldier - pay attention Dwain, you might want to rethink joining this elite club:

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of heaven,
you can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing,
come the judgement day.
On the bloody morning after...
one tin soldier rides away.

Ok Larry, I've saved the best for last (I'm not being wise). Unfortunately, I think you are misunderstanding me as well.

Again, I'm not proposing a communist system. I'm proposing a system where a Bechstein costs $50,000 whether you make minimum wage or you make six figures. It seems like everyone who reads my posts is under the impression that I think there should be a Bechstein in every house. Not so. But that is a communist system. What I am proposing is in way, shape or form a communist system.

Also, I believe it was you who was unhappy with people who shopped outside of their local area to get a better deal on a piano. If the Bechstein model I was interested in cost $50,000 across the US, there would still be competition among the dealers. If the Bechstein dealer in NY had a lousy reputation and a dealer in Atlanta had an excellent reputation and was the next closest Bechstein dealer, guess who I would be buying the piano from. But if the dealer in Atlanta wanted $10K more for the piano than the crummy dealer in NY, I'll buy it in NY.

In many ways, I agree that the cost of an item is irrelevant, it is one part of the equation. But it is a guide. Now if the piano cost the same at every dealer, the price would matter only in determining the pianos affordability.

Now I do have a problem with your McDonald's soft-drink example. If McDonald's charged John Smith before me $1.49 for the Pepsi and then charged me $6.49 for it, you bet I'd want to know why. If that were to happen, I'm sure they'd come up with some story about the cost of the cup going up, or increased labor charges, etc... Would I ask for a break-down? You bet.

So this leads me to re-asking, if I walk in and want your best prict on a 7' Bechstein, does the next person that walks in requesting your best price on the same model get the same price? And, if not, why not.

In a post either yesterday or the day before, I did say that in a "fixed price" system, the piano should be sold at a fair price. I went on to say that the dealer has a right to make a profit and a comfortable living. But when there are disparities in prices on pianos such as there are in cars between NY and California, I will wind up doing my homework and buying from whoever offers the best combination of service, integrity and price.

Derick

P.S. David Burton, I suggest you READ my posts before shooting your long ingnorant trap off (I'm using your words which were directed at me, so I'll recycle them and see how they make you feel). I NEVER said I'd make a stink about what Larry paid for the piano. I also NEVER said that I had the right to determine what he could make on a piano. In fact, I'll restate what I've stated at least twice; every dealer is entitled to make a profit and support themselves comfortably.

You seem to think that because you make a statement, that it is an absolute because you said it. You are stating an opinion as I am stating mine. And in my opinion, CEO's who reap monetary benefits at the expense of employees are guilty of nothing short of armed robbery. Only it happens to be sanctioned by capitalism. Or, more precisely, Republicans. In my opinion, these people are overpaid. Or, if you rather, we can take all the pressure off of them, and give them a job making minimum wage which, adjusted for inflation, is far below what was established in the 1960's. The only problem with that is that we'll have to take away their comprehensive lifetime medical benefits and they'll have to scrape together what little money they have left over to pay health insurance. And, God forbid they get sick, the HMOs will make them get second and third opinions just looking for a way to deny treatment.

BTW, the CEO's I know are in perfect health. And their job description basically reads "tell everyone else what to do". Even disgraced CEO's don't have it so bad. Or maybe it's very tough for Kenneth Lay to take the 5th when asked a question? There I go again shooting off my long, ignorant, (probably ought to toss in communist as well) trap off.

I would like to interrupt this exchange of ad homonym attacks to translate a humorous French saying: "If, at 20, you are NOT a communist you have no heart. If, at 40, you ARE a communist you have no brain."

T2

Too bad the good tone of this thread didn't last. The "new Derick" doesn't seem to extend much deeper than the "new Nixon" did. Oversensitive, overbearing, and quickly willing to drop into insults.

The older I get and the longer I work (in a factory) the more conservative I become. I may be somewhat liberal, but to be honest that is a system that rejects hardworking responsible people like me. I went to college awhile back on a student loan (because I make too much $$ to go for free, according to the goverment) and it dawned on me that I was defeating the purpose of going if I rack up $17,000.00 in loans to be a schoolteacher. I am now paying $55.00 a month on that loan, because the goverment thinks I am able to afford it (along with the $200.00 or more taxes they take from my hard labor (I'm a custodian) earned paycheck each week). I'll get to the top of the hill someday (no I have no designs to be rich, just happy and with a job that reflects my intellect), but I understand how some people become bitter and hard in the heart on the way there. My poorer friends are all walking around with free college degrees. Sad thing is most of them wouldn't have "worked in a pie factory sampling pies", before they got their professional degree jobs. I have to work at not becoming a bitter type of person, I don't think it helps matters at all.

I had a sweet "English" couple come to visit here last week (my Jimmy D. friends are all over the world, God bless 'em) and they are in the same boat as I, more or less. Everything isn't as free in the U.K. as we think and the middle people pay the price for the others there too (of course the rich pay a higher tax there than here). The subject of college came along and of course they started in on me (they kind of paid to go too, but at a very cheap rate). Why should someone that reads Jung/Thomas Hardy etc. have to clean for a living???? She was almost in tears, no kidding here. It took awhile for me to explain to them that we don't promote people like myself up the ladder here. I have a job and a house, I should be a happy camper and be grateful (and I am grateful). The heck with people like me, because we are rich enough to move up (LOL yeah right). Why is a poor mind a terrible thing to waste, but not a lower or middle class mind??????? At any rate, if someone like me "goes up the ladder" it was most likely done in a very hard way. No freebies, No free lunches, No free books and education tools, No employer patting you on the back and helping you out...... Sounds depressing and it is, but that's the truth.

My heros are all working/ lower middle/ class types that pulled themselves up. James Dean, Bruce Springsteen, Richard & Karen Carpenter, etc..... and those are just the entertainment people on my list (the intellect/business list is too long) IT CAN BE DONE, but not in an easy way. No one helps these types of people out, they do it on their own THE HARD WAY and they have/had no choice about that either.

Kind of sad to think that some people get it all for "free" while others have to nearly kill themselves to get there.


God Bless the poor (but what about the rest of us) and God Bless The Child that has her/his own (because nobody else seems to care).


Freddie

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: freddie ]