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Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Bear 1] #1168479
03/25/09 10:06 AM
03/25/09 10:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 422
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Diaphragmatic Offline
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Diaphragmatic  Offline
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D

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 422
Looks like you were totally correct AJB. Bear had one agenda when asking me that question over and over; take that answer and use at as means to give a sales pitch on how important the warranties are and how much BETTER the Kawai was compared to the asked company Steinway, Boston & Essex. He knew exactly what the Steinway companies warranty policy was. Its ok though, I suppose these are the tactics used and I should have expected it.



Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1168576
03/25/09 01:12 PM
03/25/09 01:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Bear 1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Bear 1  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
Looks like you were totally correct AJB. Bear had one agenda when asking me that question over and over; take that answer and use at as means to give a sales pitch on how important the warranties are and how much BETTER the Kawai was compared to the asked company Steinway, Boston & Essex. He knew exactly what the Steinway companies warranty policy was. Its ok though, I suppose these are the tactics used and I should have expected it.
----------
Hi Jonathan,

Wow, you certainly are a feisty guy today. smile

I don't really want to get into flaming, and tinkling contests. It ain't worth it in the long run.

I'll try to paraphrase my postings as best as I can.
Us old guys sometimes have a difficult time remembering the exact words we've said.

I couldn't find, on Steinway's website, what Boston and Essex warranties were in terms of both length of time and whether they are limited or full warranties. The site said something to the effect that the warranties vary from country to country and to ask your local Steinway dealer what the warranty is. I did say that I knew that Steinway pianos have a 5 year warranty but I didn't know if it was limited or full.
You seem to think you're a mind reader when you say, Quote "He knew exactly what the Steinway companies warranty policy was." smile

Jonathan, please remember that manufacturers can and do change their warranty policies from time to time. I've been retired for over 4 years and I've not had much of a reason to keep up with every manufacturer's changes, if any.

I asked you the questions over and over {twice} because no one associated with Steinway or you yourself would answer the questions. To me they seemed to be reasonable questions, and were kindly answered by Bob Snyder, a highly respected Rep from the Steinway factory. After Bob's post, you posted to me "Sorry I didn't see your posts"
I answered back to you "That's okay, I don't see some of the posts either."

In trying to answer AJB's post I went very deep in what the two different type of warranties implied, according to the US Government, for US citizens.
I didn't think that was much of a sales pitch for Kawai. but a factual quote from the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

Kawai isn't the only piano manufacturer that gives their owners a full warranty. Do a little searching and I think that you'll find that Young Chang, Charles Walters, and Hailun among others have full warranties. One of the companies has a 15 year full warranty, another has a 12 year full warranty, some of them state that they have a lifetime warranty {what ever that means} and others have various full warranties.
Gosh, Kawai only has a 10 year full warranty, so if a consumer is shopping warranties for their main reason in making their decision to buy, they're not much of a savvy buyer in my opinion.

I said that a full warranty protects the owner while a limited warranty protects the manufacturer. That is a fact.

You are 100% correct that I think since Kawai and Boston are both made side by side, on the same conveyor belt, in the same factories, using many identical parts, Kawai's full warranty is better than Boston's limited warranty. Now I don't think that's a sales pitch, but it is my opinion, others are certainly welcome to disagree. smile

If you've read some of my many other posts, you'll see that I have stated repeatedly to consumers, "Buy the piano that you like the most regardless of brand name or model." I sincerely mean that. {Even if it's an Essex} laugh

Anyway, Jonathan I hope you have a very happy and prosperous day, and I think we can be friends that can agree to disagree.
It's up to you.

Regards to your Dad and Duane.

Sincerely,

Bear



Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1168582
03/25/09 01:23 PM
03/25/09 01:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18
Toronto
RayRoland Offline
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RayRoland  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18
Toronto
Thank-you Bear for your detailed explanation. Kudos to Kawai for building an excellent quality piano and backing the instruments as well as they do.
As for your "tactics"; I find it incredibly hypocritical for the Steinway guys to mouth off in the previous posts. I am quite familiar with the Steinway school of hard-selling, and I find their "tactics" to be mis-leading at the very least.
I started in this business 52 years (ouch) ago when I was 6, and have been involved in all aspects of the music business, and taught new sales guys and gals how to be effective. Know your product, represent it honestly, qualify the customers needs and desires and cut the B.S. Seems from your posts, you follow these basic concepts. The guys that didn't follow these basic rules had a very short life in the business. I think I will shoot the next so-called sales professional who tries to use the "Ben Franklin" balance sheet or similar old-school B.S. high-pressure tactics.
I enjoy and appreciate your posts and insights, keep them coming.


Ray
www.pianokeyboard.com
Toronto area dealer for Rieger Kloss, Ritmuller, Pre-Owned Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai,
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: RayRoland] #1168611
03/25/09 02:01 PM
03/25/09 02:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Bear 1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Bear 1  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Hi Ray,

Thank you very much for your kind words. I appreciate it. smile

I wish continued success for you and your business.
In my opinion, you're doing it the right way.

Warm regards,

Bear


Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: RayRoland] #1168662
03/25/09 03:02 PM
03/25/09 03:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 422
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Diaphragmatic Offline
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Diaphragmatic  Offline
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D

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 422
Originally Posted by RayRoland
Thank-you Bear for your detailed explanation. Kudos to Kawai for building an excellent quality piano and backing the instruments as well as they do.
As for your "tactics"; I find it incredibly hypocritical for the Steinway guys to mouth off in the previous posts. I am quite familiar with the Steinway school of hard-selling, and I find their "tactics" to be mis-leading at the very least.


Mouth off? If you consider my factual post calling out Bear's set-up "mouthing-off" then I guess thats what it was.

And Ray, you know nothing about the way we do business and obviously nothing of the thousands of very happy customers we have had the privilege to serve over the past 20 years. Steinway's approach is anything but the "school of hard-selling" you describe.

Imagine this; most Steinway dealers actually sell the piano for what they are listed for, what an amazing concept! Our prices are not based on the customers ability to negotiate. Thats far from the hard-selling concepts you claim.








Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1168669
03/25/09 03:07 PM
03/25/09 03:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 233
choleric Offline
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choleric  Offline
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Posts: 233
Yikes! Nothing like a little cat-fight. I have to side with Diaphragmatic, though, on this one. To focus more on warranty, supposed sales tactics, and who was 100% responsible for making the Boston, than on the quality of the piano is a little transparent.


Choleric
Yamaha CVP307 digital piano
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1168672
03/25/09 03:12 PM
03/25/09 03:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,757
England/Switzerland
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member
AJB  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,757
England/Switzerland
Bear - you are being disingenuous. You have spent 44 years in the industry and my suggestion was that such a professional would know most things there are to know about the major competition, including the warranty polices. This is especially so since you represented Kawai and Steinway contract with Kawai to make the Boston line.

My post was quite clearly tongue in cheek with respect to your professional standing. I trained as a lawyer - hence my remark about the common lawyerly tactic of tending to ask questions to which we already know the answer.

Kind regards

Adrian




Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: AJB] #1168729
03/25/09 04:53 PM
03/25/09 04:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,907
SoCal
Plowboy Offline

2000 Post Club Member
Plowboy  Offline

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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,907
SoCal
Boy, oh boy, nothing gets this place as worked up as a post mentioning Boston or Essex. I still don't understand it, but enjoy the fireworks nonetheless!

Any company that has its rivals so discombobulated must be doing something right, whatever that may be.

Bear1, that's not meant as a shot at you, BTW, you seem like a pretty fair-minded guy. Just a general observation. I admire the willpower of Bob Snyder who never lets himself get dragged into these things, which speaks well of Steinway IMHO.



Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Plowboy] #1168794
03/25/09 06:21 PM
03/25/09 06:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 800
Westchester, NY
fingers Offline
500 Post Club Member
fingers  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 800
Westchester, NY
RayRoland,

"Mouth off"

You are out of line and ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Very ashamed!

fingers


Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Plowboy] #1168803
03/25/09 06:51 PM
03/25/09 06:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Sarasota and Naples, FL
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Nick Mauel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Sarasota and Naples, FL
This thread is more about Kawai and Boston so I would like to add an experience I had just yesterday:

First off, Bear has been kind enough to give detailed warranty information about Kawai vs. Boston. Why?

The Kawai transferable warranty is a HUGE selling feature and benefit to a customer in case they have to sell their piano!

How unfortunate that Steinway-Boston-Essex, Yamaha, and most others do not have even a transferable warranty whereas Kawai, Hailun, and Brodmann to name a few, do.

It seems funny that the most popular brand names don't think they need to offer a transferable warranty. Do they only wish to use the warranty for the marketing of their new pianos instead of to benefit the owner for the full warranty period whomever that might be? Would the resale of the slightly used piano with factory transferable warranty potentially hurt their sales of new units?

It's sometimes hard for customers to distinguish facts from marketing hype, and Bear is simply trying to point out the realities which are far more valuable to consider.

Yesterday I evaluated a 10 year old Boston 178 (5'10") for a potential trade in. I am more used to Kawai pianos having dealt in both new and used for many years.

I was rather surprised at the aging of the 10 year old Boston. No wonder the customer wants to trade it in for a Brodmann. Trouble is, it's not a good trade for me to accept.

On the other hand, the Kawai quality is usually clearly seen even after 10 years (as it should be), particularly in the stability of the action. Also, the evenness which Kawai pianos are voiced at the factory is usually always still noticeable. Most of the time you cannot tell it from a new piano.

Bear, maybe you're not welcome on Steinway threads but your informative posts really help!

In my opinion, the features and benefits of Kawai pianos far outweigh those of the Boston, and this has been especially evident after examining examples of each which had been used about the same amount.


Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Nick Mauel] #1168829
03/25/09 08:16 PM
03/25/09 08:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,365
Philadelphia
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member
ftp  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,365
Philadelphia
I notice a number of comments about length of warranties. Would be interested in hearing how these warranties come into play as I forget reading about the invocation of them on PW threads (with the exception of problems in the first year).

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Nick Mauel] #1168893
03/25/09 10:53 PM
03/25/09 10:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 30
Central Florida
KeyDip Offline
Full Member
KeyDip  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 30
Central Florida
I have to go with Nick and Bear on this. Just one quick observation with the Boston pianos. The actions on the Bostons are completely different from the Kawais. The Kawais have the carbon fiber technology action parts. They are extremely exact and are impervious to climate changes. Maybe that's one reason they sound and perform so well after many years. It continues to amaze me how many people in our industry are not familiar with the Millenium III Action, especially since its been on the market now for several years.

Another observation is that many prospective piano buyers (usually new buyers) are caught up only in branding or the "story". Meaning they made only an emotional purchase, not one based on facts. I can't tell you how many people over the last 30+ years bought a new piano and then asked my opinion as their technician whether or not they made a good choice.


Bruce A. Fanzlaw, RPT
39 years in the Piano Industry
Active Technician/Rebuilder
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: KeyDip] #1168910
03/25/09 11:26 PM
03/25/09 11:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 422
D
Diaphragmatic Offline
Full Member
Diaphragmatic  Offline
Full Member
D

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 422
KeyDip,
I think they asked your opinion because they thought highly of it.


Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Nick Mauel] #1168968
03/26/09 01:46 AM
03/26/09 01:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
S
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member
schwammerl  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
Quote
How unfortunate that Steinway-Boston-Essex, Yamaha, and most others do not have even a transferable warranty whereas Kawai, Hailun, and Brodmann to name a few, do.

It seems funny that the most popular brand names don't think they need to offer a transferable warranty. Do they only wish to use the warranty for the marketing of their new pianos instead of to benefit the owner for the full warranty period whomever that might be? Would the resale of the slightly used piano with factory transferable warranty potentially hurt their sales of new units?


This is strange and confusing information as the Brodmann warranty is very spesific adn strict:
Quote
This warranty service is available to the original owner only and when the piano is purchased from an authorized Brodmann Dealer


Brodmann warranty

So either this claim of Brodmann warranty being transferable is a mistake or they changed tactics recently in this respect. If the latter is the case Brodmann should urgently update this official document on their website.

schwammerl.

Last edited by schwammerl; 03/26/09 01:48 AM.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: schwammerl] #1169051
03/26/09 08:13 AM
03/26/09 08:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Sarasota and Naples, FL
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Nick Mauel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Sarasota and Naples, FL
Schwammerl,

Brodmann announced to its dealers that all Brodmann pianos sold as of August 2008 would have transferable warranties.

Here is an excerpt from an e-mail I received from Brodmann which was sent out to dealers on 7/29/2008:

"Effective August 1, 2008 all Brodmann pianos sold will carry a 12 YEAR TRANSFERABLE WARRANTY! This will be one of the best warranties offered in our industry."

Thanks,

Nick


Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Nick Mauel] #1169151
03/26/09 11:06 AM
03/26/09 11:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
S
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member
schwammerl  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
Nick,

Thank you.
Excellent warranty indeed; do not know of any better one!

As almost 8 months past since August 1st 2008, you could perhaps ask them to urgently update the website for this.

It is the first place customers go to look for that kind of information.

schwammerl.

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1192110
05/02/09 08:35 PM
05/02/09 08:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 116
Southern California
S
StatsMan Offline
Full Member
StatsMan  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 116
Southern California
Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic

And Ray, you know nothing about the way we do business and obviously nothing of the thousands of very happy customers we have had the privilege to serve over the past 20 years. Steinway's approach is anything but the "school of hard-selling" you describe.


I agree with Diaphragmatic. I am looking at Essex along with other brands. I have been to three Steinway dealers in three different counties and none of the sales people were hard-selling at all.


Essex by Steinway Model EUP123E
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