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Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: fourinone] #1167983
03/24/09 02:41 PM
03/24/09 02:41 PM
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Boston 118s could be had for maybe a little over 5k.

That is a great piano. It is a true performance studio. Just a thought.

Good luck Fourinone.


Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
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Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1167994
03/24/09 02:50 PM
03/24/09 02:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
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Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
JF,
The Boston has Steinway approved material a Steinway design and is marketed and backed by Steinway. Kawai is contracted to build the piano. It is a little more in-depth than just saying Kawai builds the Boston. OEM (original equipment manufacturing) is very common amongst companies today including Hailun and Brodmann and Essex and Boston to name a few.

A comparison that I make frequently is the iPod. Apple does not manufacture iPods, Samsung does in China. Would you consider the iPod anything other than an apple product? of course not. It is the same basic relationships between many piano makes and the people who manufacture them.

You are on the right track but I think a little bit more clarity was appropriate.

BTW, thank you for your very honest opinion of the Essex make. I am gland you had a chance to play one.


I think the iPod comparison is at best disingenuous. The relationship between Kawai and Steinway is considerably different than that between the engineers at Cupertino and the myriad of different outsourced manufacturing facilities that make Apple products. Kawai themselves describe the relationship as 'joining forces'. The manufacturing processes are about as far apart as you could imagine between an inexpensive electronic device and an expensive piano. It is hard to imagine the Boston design surviving intact the switch to a new manufacturer. Even though they arguably compete with each other, Kawai benefited from the deal with Steinway because it allowed them to make use of excess productive capacity. I have no idea of the nature of the contract that binds Kawai and Steinway, but I would venture to say that if in time Kawai does not see value in their relationship with Steinway - they would terminate it - and vice versa for Steinway. All of which is to say, the relationship between the two companies is much more intimate than your iPod comparison would suggest.

Aside from all that, many people like Boston pianos and prefer them to Kawai. It is difficult to argue, however, that Kawai doesn't present a better value, given they are manufactured together and cost less money. If the touch and tone of the Boston justifies the difference, go for it - but you owe it to yourself to try a Kawai as well.


Doug
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: SCCDoug] #1168016
03/24/09 03:20 PM
03/24/09 03:20 PM
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Fourinone: Can you go outside your area? If you would post where you are, then others on this forum could make recommendations. If the dealers in your area are out of business, it seems likely that dealers in other areas would be willing to work with you.

Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: SCCDoug] #1168027
03/24/09 03:35 PM
03/24/09 03:35 PM
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It isn't a perfect comparison by any means but it does make the point that Kawai builds what Steinway wants them too because ultimately Kawai works for Steinway to manufacture the piano.

It is true some materials are very similar and even identical; this brings down the cost of the materials for both manufacturers through greater buying power.

The action and scaling is where the main differences lie. Creating a piano scale is a difficult undertaking. Steinway has been doing this for over 155 years. 155 years of proprietary scale designing knowledge went into the Boston.

I am not here to say one is better than the other =) A Boston is a Boston, a Kawai is a Kawai; they play and sound very, very different.

Also the Boston and RX Kawai are, for all intense and purposes, the same retail price, or more importantly the same wholesale cost.

I admit it can be a difficult stance to communicate but these are the objections we face. I think you can hear and feel the difference and we have had good success with the Boston piano.


Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: mike_klein5] #1168035
03/24/09 03:45 PM
03/24/09 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mike_klein5
[...] Although Boston and Essex brands are well made pianos they are still no comparison to an actual Steinway. The purpose of creating the Boston and Essex brands were to allow buyers to purchase a more affordable piano that is still made with the qualities which Steinway has.

[...]


This reads like a total contradiction. Boston and Essex can't compare to Steinways yet they have the qualities of Steinways. Either they can or they can't, or they are or they aren't!

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: BruceD] #1168039
03/24/09 03:51 PM
03/24/09 03:51 PM
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Bruce,
Perhaps "Essence that a Steinway has" is the appropriate response that Mike was looking for.


Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: BruceD] #1168041
03/24/09 03:54 PM
03/24/09 03:54 PM
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One time a Kawai salesman told me that Steinway wanted to get the Millennium 3 action, the ABS component parts, and some of the RX manufacturing technology for Boston, but that Kawai wouldn't budge. Instead, Kawai gave Steinway the manufacturing technology for its old KG grands, and kept the GS and RX technology for itself.

Any truth to this I wonder?

JF


Kimball 6'7" Viennese Classic
Adult re-learning after 20-years
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: JF] #1168043
03/24/09 03:56 PM
03/24/09 03:56 PM
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Jonathan,

Yes, the 6'7" Kimball is large, but bigger seems to be better in my experience. The tone is really quite sweet, not like a booming Baldwin, but really nice and refined. I like it quite a lot.

JF


Kimball 6'7" Viennese Classic
Adult re-learning after 20-years
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: JF] #1168056
03/24/09 04:12 PM
03/24/09 04:12 PM
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Sounds like something a competitor would say about its competition.

The Bostons are made right along side the Kawais and use the same manufacturing technology.


Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: JF] #1168057
03/24/09 04:14 PM
03/24/09 04:14 PM
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Bigger is most definitely better =) and It was meant as a sincere compliment.


Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1168161
03/24/09 06:58 PM
03/24/09 06:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
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Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
Sounds like something a competitor would say about its competition.

The Bostons are made right along side the Kawais and use the same manufacturing technology.


Jonathan,

My second request now. Why not answer my questions?

Hi Jonathan,

Question. What is the length of time of Boston and Essex warranties, and are the warranties full warranties or limited warranties?
I know that Steinway's warranty is 5 years, but is it a full warranty, or a limited warranty?

Thanks Jonathan.

Regards,

Bear



Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: fourinone] #1168165
03/24/09 07:04 PM
03/24/09 07:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
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Originally Posted by fourinone
Thank you all for your replies!!

It seems that Kawai is still a better choice for us. Unfortunately the Kawai dealer and Yamaha dealer are all out of business in our area. So there is no way that we can get a new Kawai and Yamaha right now. We have been watching at Craigslist for good used pianos, but no luck yet. My son is still using a keyboard, I really wish to get him a real piano to practise on as soon as possible. If we still can't find a good one within a month, maybe we will have to go for the Essex. Steinway and Boston are both out of our budget range frown


Call Kawai 800 421 2177 and ask for the nearest dealer now closest to you.
Or click on www.kawaius.com
Enter the Dealer search area
Type in your Zip code

Cordially,

Bear


Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Bear 1] #1168201
03/24/09 07:47 PM
03/24/09 07:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 196
West Coast
Bob Snyder Offline
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Boston and Essex pianos have 10 year warranties - they are limited to the original owner.

The Steinway warranty is 5 years - again, limited to the original owner.



Bob Snyder
Senior District Manager
Steinway & Sons

rsnyder@steinway.com
www.steinway.com
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Bob Snyder] #1168230
03/24/09 08:56 PM
03/24/09 08:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Bear 1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Snyder
Boston and Essex pianos have 10 year warranties - they are limited to the original owner.

The Steinway warranty is 5 years - again, limited to the original owner.



Hi Bob,

Thank you very much for your answers to my questions.

Respectfully,

Barry


Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Bear 1] #1168234
03/24/09 09:14 PM
03/24/09 09:14 PM
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Diaphragmatic Offline
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I didn't answer your question because I didn't see it.

Originally Posted by Bear 1
Originally Posted by Diaphragmatic
Sounds like something a competitor would say about its competition.

The Bostons are made right along side the Kawais and use the same manufacturing technology.


Jonathan,

My second request now. Why not answer my questions?

Hi Jonathan,

Question. What is the length of time of Boston and Essex warranties, and are the warranties full warranties or limited warranties?
I know that Steinway's warranty is 5 years, but is it a full warranty, or a limited warranty?

Thanks Jonathan.

Regards,

Bear



..umm wow.. I didn't see your post Bear.


Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1168265
03/24/09 10:15 PM
03/24/09 10:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Bear 1 Offline
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Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Thanks Jonathan,

No problem. smile

I don't see some of the posts either. eek

Cordially,

Bear


Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: fourinone] #1168347
03/25/09 01:45 AM
03/25/09 01:45 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,424
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Online content
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Carey  Online Content
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Phoenix, Arizona
Per Fourinone: "If we still can't find a good one within a month, maybe we will have to go for the Essex. Steinway and Boston are both out of our budget range"

Dear Fourinone - Do not - I repeat DO NOT - limit yourself to the Essex because that is all you can afford. You can do better. Just be patient and keep looking - even if you have to take a little trip to another city to find something. It will be worth it in the long run.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Carey] #1168380
03/25/09 04:45 AM
03/25/09 04:45 AM
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Bear - you have spent 44 years in the industry and you expect us to believe that you didn't know what the Steinway warranties are for its various lines? I thought you were a professional!

This is the old lawyers ruse of never asking a question you don't know the answer to.

Of more interest would be what the incidence of warranty claims is comparing say Kawai with Boston (as they are made in the same factory).

Most piano dealers I have spoken to about warranties suggest that the length of warranty is of minimal importance as the warranty only comes into effect for major failures (something beyond the ability of a roving tech to fix on site) and the vast majority of significant failures are evident very soon after the piano was manufactured.

If one is buying from a quality manufacture, warranty comparisons are a trivial component of the buying decision and not enough to swing a preference one way or the other.


Last edited by AJB; 03/25/09 04:46 AM.

Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: Diaphragmatic] #1168383
03/25/09 05:10 AM
03/25/09 05:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
San Francisco
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Diaphragmatic posted,
Quote
155 years of proprietary scale designing knowledge went into the Boston.
We've been thru several times, most recently with PianoMadam.

Originally posted by Rich Galassini:
"From "The Steinway Saga", which quotes Bruce Stevens, Pres. of S&S when the Boston pianos came out:

"When queried on the identities of the designers [of the Boston piano] Bruce Stevens stated that they were the engineers in Astoria; that none of them had ever designed a piano before was candidly admitted. They had, however, taken a one day scale design seminar with an outside consultant and were adept at the use of computers."

I think I saw a post on the PTG archives by PW's KawaiDon to the effect that there was give and take between Steinway and Kawai during the preproduction phase. Did Steinway engineers send final drawings to Kawai? KawaiDon said on PW that they did. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt re being able to use CAD software on their computers. But to say that Bostons were designed by people whose experience was limited to taking a one-day seminar from an outside consultant is to remove any notion of creativity from the meaning of "to design."

Better to say that Boston belongs to the Steinway family of pianos - which it does.



Re: Question about Essex brand deal. [Re: AJB] #1168431
03/25/09 08:37 AM
03/25/09 08:37 AM
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Posts: 1,348
Hillsboro Beach South Florida
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Originally Posted by AJB
Bear - you have spent 44 years in the industry and you expect us to believe that you didn't know what the Steinway warranties are for its various lines? I thought you were a professional!

This is the old lawyers ruse of never asking a question you don't know the answer to.

Of more interest would be what the incidence of warranty claims is comparing say Kawai with Boston (as they are made in the same factory).

Most piano dealers I have spoken to about warranties suggest that the length of warranty is of minimal importance as the warranty only comes into effect for major failures (something beyond the ability of a roving tech to fix on site) and the vast majority of significant failures are evident very soon after the piano was manufactured.

If one is buying from a quality manufacture, warranty comparisons are a trivial component of the buying decision and not enough to swing a preference one way or the other.



AJB,

Although my questions weren't addressed to you, thank you for your opinionated post.

I don't think that I need to defend my 44 year professional industry career to you or anyone else.

It's interesting, at least to me, that Kawai has a fully transferable full warranty while Boston only offers a nontransferable limited warranty.
{Steinway and Essex too}

If you don't think that a full warranty, in the USA, protects the consumer and subsequent owners of a piano {or for that matter all other consumer products} better than a limited warranty, then you possibly aren't aware of the USA's Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (MMWA) Full vs. Limited Warranty

According to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (MMWA), all warranties associated with consumer goods selling for greater than $10 are either designated as "full" or "limited" warranties.

These titles are meant to quickly inform consumers about the noteworthy terms and conditions of a warranty without having to read the fine print.
A full warranty meets the MMWA's guidelines for comprehensive warranty coverage. In the same way, a limited warranty warns consumers that the coverage does not meet one or more of the MMWA's criteria, and the coverage does not encompass all of what a full warranty does.
It is easy to determine whether you have full or limited coverage. Using the following checklist, if all five of these statements concur with the terms of your warranty, it is a full warranty:

The length of implied warranties is unlimited.
The warranty service is available to any owner of the product for the extent of the warranty; the warranty should not be exclusively offered to buyers who purchased the item shortly after it hit the market.
The warranty service is provided at no cost. This includes expenses associated with product returns, removal, and reinstallation if necessary.
The consumer is given the option of product replacement or a full refund if the product is unable to be repaired after numerous attempts.
The consumer is not asked to perform any task as a stipulation for receiving service aside from putting in for a service request. There are some exceptions to this rule, but the manufacturer must be able to give a good reason why anything beyond this is a necessity.
If any of these statements are false, you have a limited warranty.
---------

Now, I don't think that most consumers read the manufacturer's and/or the distributers written warranties before they buy a piano. In my opinion, the consumers should read the fine print and completely understand their rights regarding any warranty issues that could possibly occur.
Some manufacturer's warranties require the consumer to pay for transporting the piano to and back from where the manufacturer has decided the repairs are to be done. There is so much fine print on many manufacturer's warranties, that indeed it does take a lawyer to fully understand what the consumer's rights really are.
If a consumer asks "What's the warranty on this piano?" The salesperson will most likely say "Oh don't worry, parts and labor are covered for 10 years against any defects." ....

[/b]
As an example in some States in the USA, a consumer with a full warranty, could get their money back anytime the product can not be properly repaired within the length of time the product is covered by it's warranty. {Lemon Law}

Also a fully transferrable warranty generally will make it easier for an owner to resell the piano to someone else by transferring the balance of the full warranty to any and all subsequent owners.

I never said that a warranty should swing the buying decision and I agree it's not enough to swing a preference one way or the other.

However, Full warranties do protect the consumer, while limited warranties protect the manufacturer. Period.

Now, if forum readers, nice folks, intellectuals, lurkers, sock puppets, trolls, and prospective piano buyers don't give a hoot about the type of warranties out there in "Pianoland" ... So be it.

My apologies for such a long winded post.

Regards,

Bear


Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)
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